27.-black-liberation-and-pic-abolition.pdf
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Black Liberation and the Abolition of
the Prison Industrial Complex

An Interview with Rachel Herzing
¢2016)

Rachel Herzing lve and works in Oakland, CA, where she fights the violence of policing and
mprizonment. She ie @ confoander of Citta! Resieonce, 2 ntionel graserots argesizaton
dedicated te abolishing the prison industrial complex and the Co-Director ofthe ScoryTeling &-
Organising Projec, a community resource staring stories of interentons to interpersonal
erm that de mot rly ox poling, tmprinoament, oF tradtional roca! services. The following
interview was conducted bythe True Leap Publishing Collective.

‘True Leap Press (TLP): Hi Rachel, thank you so much fer taking the time to do this
interview. We ate excited to have yeu as a contributor in this inaugunil edition of
‘Fropter Nos, Our publishing collective thinks the spedfic timing of this ise is
important to highligh, ac i is et to be released in the clocing days of Black August.
Could you possibly explain what Black August is for our readers, and why itis so
‘important for people to recognize today?

Rachel: Black Augus: 1s 2 cal for zeflecion, stud, and action to promote Black
Fiseration. its roots go back to California prisons in the ig70s, daring a periad of
sustained struggle and resistance aganst rcialized violence against Black imprisoned
‘people, especialy those calling for Black liberation and challenging state power.
{Ignited by the deaths of Jonathan anc George Jackson in August 1970 and August 1971,
and honoring cthers who gare their lives induling Khatari Gualden, William
Christmas and james McClain. 2 group of imprisoned people came together to
develop a means of honoring that sacrifice and promoting Black liberation. While
‘Agus: i significant because of the deaths of the Jackson brothers it is also a month.
‘with many other significant moments in Black history in the United States including


the formation ofthe Underground Rakosd, Net Turners rebetion, the March on
Washington, and the Wat upg, (0 name fs ew. So there wat a ea that
thiscouk be atime that inprimed peopl inthe Califa piney could ee
for reflection, saudy, and te think about how to strengthen their struggles. During the
‘oath, prople would’ we radios otelevision, would st betwen in up and an
dle, end pcice ther eases ofeeledaiotin, Bently the commemoratiens
daring that month were taken up outside of prisms, ton, Malcolm X Gasrons
Moremest bese the stewards ofthe crmmemoraon ctside pring, though
many people honor and clcbatc this lepcy and the rots ofthe pac. Bc
‘Asp isimporant to conimemorate (and hope thatthe vey of ways hat people
‘corememorate that legacy can be nurtured and encouraged), in part, because it
omcts imprisoned exgninen ond erelatioraries with commutes ouside of
Paltns that ae sragling for sme things fs oem the cae tht imprisoned
coremunties are meant te inv, and erential ct offen nea-imprsoned
commie, specilly comme of tag I thik ht a portant sso
torte, wel 0 study anc honor the wafces Bac rvolsonais hae made
cove centres and secommie curses tothe stugge. Blick Asgut provides ene
important whie for doing hat.





TAP: On this note, how did the contempowary prison and policing abolition
morement emerge? Whit are some of the major theoretical and Matoreal
‘connections existing between aboitonism in its curent iterations and these carker
articulations of the Back/Prsoner Hibeatin struggle jst mentioned?

Rachel Wel think the perodzation protably deperds on who you talk t.So since
youre talking to me, you'e going to get something pretty mec laughter tank
it ao depends on what you mean by “oatemgorary” In my mind, there i lene
through ine of people Sighting particulary forthe abolition of imprisonment that
oes back to tasters tate Pententary, waich was the Ret mocem éay US prison.
‘That wat in Pliladlphia, a0. Almost immediatly, dhe Quakers, who played a ole
in bulding this instotion to enceurage reflection, understood tht thie was a
smiake And Quakers eer ce thar ae Have een on the froatine of advocating,
forthe atolton of impionment. So theres tht otimey version oft which aks
back to the development and the build up of peiteniares as iestttions of
continent aa aan entra .

Ifyou jemp dead to the 19708 andig8os, you bey to see organizations that
axe lighting fora moratrium on prison constuction, but also groups advocating
sctney for he abulkion impvomeat, Por imtanc, theres «bookthat cae out
‘uring this pti elled Instead of rsa, orignal pubtahed in 97, by a greup
called Prion Research Education Action Project (PREAP) At tat tne, they were


loki ata nitions risen population that waa 50.00, They thought ry this ca
Xiping pont, we reed to take acton now. And so, at we know, the imprisoned
population in the US ie row nearly 23 malin. So this stra dates bac, the, 0
the seveates and eighties. and became somewhat qulter in certain periods, but
neve completely went avay.

1998 bs ancther important year the founding Crit Tesistance (CR)
conference was held in Bertley that year. Tat confrence did some work to
reinvigorate the concept of abolitcn, and not just at 2 thing to ganze around
incalecwally, but o organi campaigns and projects around, as well It aso
tence the conept ofthe plan fndtal complex (PIC) into mare popular
carsciousness Whie that conference did't foe sce kind of moder abelitonist
movement, i di reignite an energy that may have been lis prominent or ess ative
jin prior to it-Thatconfrence wana ery focused on inpecanment and i wasn't
“until 2001, when Critieal Resistance East happened that there was 2 relly strong
_stention toward thinking about the abolition of the prison industrial complex as 2
whole, That wae kind oft the frefont afwhat hat onforence aes ah

{think toy, and since becoming an organization in 2001, CR phys a
panicular role in advocating forthe abstion of the entire system—of the entire
ton industil complen—rather thn jt ing prion abolaion erganiration, CR
‘rs really a€ the freon in the early 2008 a an orgaization advocating forthe
Atslition of plicing too. Nowadaysyou hea alt more prope aking about potcing
ita ae smethig im igh, st app sesting te function withinthe PC oreven
jus its lation to imprisonment. Iie moce common thee days fr people to think
about ways olive without some idea thatlaw enforementis a hid ofnateral Feature
of ear world.

‘0 {thnk thee ie a through lin there fom exty Quaker opposition to
Imprsorment to the contemporary movement for PIC abolition. And ke all
movement, there are ome ebbe and flout tt, hut thee are some of the key
makers that [would use total about its development.

“TLD: What excl brought you into the abolitionist mowenent? Da yon identify a
abolitionist, ris this one aspect ofa lange, overarching framework: which informs
your praca?

Rachel: I think itis both. 1 definitely identify as a prison industrial complex
abulitionist. Ido that work because I believe inthe liberation of Black people and 1
‘think that i ane ofthe fovernost ways tee that broader goal lfiled. Without the
abeliionit moveroent and without a commirment to erding mass criminalization,
containment, and death of Blick people, I doc' think Blick Bberation is possible in
‘the Unied States—or elsewhere, fanbiy. 80 1 come to this work as a survivor of
sexual harm and lav enforcement harm vho doesnt: belive the PIC makes me any
safe, and as somebedy whois committed io the fberation of Black people.

‘TH: You alluded earlier to the differences between a police of gradualist police and
‘rxon reform and a prvomindustia-compler abolitionist prs. What are your
thoughts on fang potal sug in tens eer “bolton” er “ef Are
there not imitations to framing the convention inthis way?

Rachel: | done chink i very usefl wo poten these a nates, chink i’ more
about diferent end games Back in the eal 2000, teal Restance started using 2
framework that aloof proplare wing mow, and almost never rei: CRby the way
(tte Thope Jus mean ie us pouneated the common sense and ot that people
simpy dot credit CR lauahee). We sarted saying thet the distinction between
abelionsts and reformers (or people who either ave abolition a thei end goal or
reform as thelr end goa) 16 that reformers yen 10 set the sytem as broken —
something tat can be fxed wih some qweaks or some changes. Whereas
ablitionists think that the estem works really well. They think thatthe PIC is
completdy ecient in contaixing, contreling,kling, and disappearing he people
that itis meant to Even if might sweep up adional people in its wake. ii very.
very ebestve at dong th wodk its meat to do. So rather than improving Kling
smashine an abolitionist goal woud be tote and figure out ow to take incremental
sepe—ascrew here, 2 cox there—and make iso the system cannot contiue—2o it
sears t exit—rather than improving ite ficiency. Wheteas reformer, with
‘iminal justice reform being ther end goa, beleve there le something worth
imroving ther. Sothe goupshavediffeent end games.

Ihave never undestood or participated in moves towaréabeltion that ck't
‘ake steps of some sot. A refrm is just a change ight? So there can be negative
reforms and there can be postive forma You can make a change that entrenchet
‘the system, improves its abity te Function, increases its legitimacy, 20: 2 non-
abeltionst gal. Or, you can ake an incremestal step tha seals Same of the PICs
ower, makes it more dificult to fuationin the Futre or decreates its lgitimacy in
‘theeyes ofthe people.

thinthe file distinion berween reform and aboliten assumes that here
feo Hind of pe wsen thar doce equine sratgy or incremental mowers. Hi ie
posible to get everybody to open all prion dors wide today, fant is no,
then what can we d to chip avay, chip away, chip away s thatthe PIC doesn't have
‘he ability eo onsnaalynereie ts power or depen its each and held on our Inet



LP: What do you see being the most sigifcant overlaps between: the past two
Aecades of abwlitioiat exganiving. “Rack Lives Matte,” and the movement for Slack


lives inits current phase? I know is a messy question, because there are falls atthe
reticent wh ar situated beh Heooglclly and physclly ac the Intersections
between each, Maybe 2 better way to phrase it &: do you see any tersiont or
contradictions between the aboltienise work that has wnfolded over the past to
<dccades and the emergent Black-led politcal forme thing shape today?

Rachel: ist of {want to be very clear 1 cannot speak for Blick Lives Mater.
fat embrace Mater, im to involved that orpnizasion, snd donot
have the abity to speak on thes suategy or form. But I inaw theres a dation
tbtween them andthe Moverent fb Back Lives, which ea network of nearly sty
Macksled orpinizaons sro the US thie cae together moot Hint in Calin
and then out of tht, have conti to work together, Ant Black Lives Mater isone
of those orgnizatos. The Novenent fr Blak Lives recently relessed this plicy
nn tied A ison fo Mc ie, with more han thty plc ees

guess would 2 afr things tothis questi: Fat think that what we are
seeing emerge todiy—rhat I woul! loiely cil a Back protest mevement, wich
Tncldes a et ofthese omarizations and formation jst mentioned—weuld ave
_xcul been imposible to come ot in the way hati as(t hve the foundation to
sand on and to hive people move nthe way that they have) there han Been
snowing wovereris agains inprisnment and policing inthe United States over the
‘previous two decades. dont know ftheve ea ingle seo politica within Bc Lives
‘Mae a ww Ws ot tse win Lhe Maven fr Black ve) the compel
‘2% abolonit orientation towards ei work. think there are some people who lean
‘hac way and hk there are some peope who lan ater waysand thnk there a
2 vacety of poiial peapecves and orentatons chat te een emerge fom this
Iwoader network. guess, at various pons, ve been supe thts ite attention
has been paid to the decades of work (ell actualy cents of work, but rent
decodes in priest) done by Black people and Msck ogaizatins to fight the
violence of policicg in the United States: especialy when the protest rovement
jumped of. undastand that people paicipitng ia that protest ware fuled inno
somal pact by outage and in jos somplte disbelief atthe selaatd scope ofthe
wilenct and that people ate being activated and drown au fox the fret te. There
ave some wh fl competed co action right avay ard weet necessuly connected
tethon athe argmination or mowmenet.

Uehink ae the past evo yenrs hive unfolded Tve seen, paniculrly in che
Moverent for Black Lie, sme ofthat ieadenhip and some of thos organizations
sing good study. thinkingatout eer Back iveraonist platforms. thinking bout
the histories of Blick stra around aware of other sues and eely broadening
their undersanding ofthe violence facing Back people. That is not oaly ises
srounding the orison indesal complex. but also the ecnontic, social and




paltical fearures of it dwt know that there te a direct celtionahip herunen the
previous decades of work—and again, I mean prior work along the spectrum from
abulitionist to moderate reform-—and thete new Black protest formations. { think
there ie probably overlap of people, probably some owrlapof thinking and probably
some overlap ofstntegy. But | dont know if they ae in direct relatonshig to each
other would ay that while thee can beno deube that Black Lives Matter has had
‘unprecedented cultara significance and inpact an US popalareelture (on US media
andthe culsu life of people in the states and globally), itis ess dear to mewhat ‘he
‘organizing iropact will be. And ina place ike Cakiand where [ve there are strong
conganizations with decades of strong organizing going back te the Panthers snd
before tat set the sage diferent than what might be truefor other places that have
{2 atereat history. So I ink the longer term impactsof this mos recent acivism on
the power ofthe prison irdustial complex over Black lives and the tive of people of
cob and Indigenous people more generally) has yet to be seen, That sad I think
‘here has beer 2 change nthe conversaticn. {vitnk there sno doubt thar here 62
realy siguificanteukural impact, eventhough some ofits all inthe making.



‘TLE: How do you understand the prsover hunger strkes and other pronerted
acivisms that have occurred over the pas: decade in reationship co such
‘mebilizations against poling and ermlnalization in the socalled “free woe"?

‘ache: 1 think it depends on how you eine mobilizations in the fee word 1 think
‘there isa strong movertent cutside of fisoni and jails, Sometimes it gets more
tention and sometimes it gee lea attention, but U thnk it has susatned. UC dea't
necessarily think that is the stme thing a this Black protest stain. Again there ae
‘overiapping people and overlapping payers and that cor of thicg, but I have yet to
et wohl api, deve to any that it couldn't Sappen) an engagement ov activin
‘beyond diect action tha has meaningfully connected to more austained organizing
around imprionmeat.

So Fm not eae that i's fir necessarily o eay“theyse not doirg a good jb”
because 'n not sure tha’ their gol, righ I think the geal is 2 much mare media
focused one. With that Being aid Ithink there is what f would cal and eis fs me
shaving my age and crathines shout sacial media) am qvereliance nancial din
‘which has meane that a at of people are jst Le out. perinally have the hana to
‘make choices about being on social media or not and the choice co opt out ef certain
types of feds of information and conversitions But there are many people who are
living in cages who don't have accessto social media. And even for those who do, they
‘might not have access (1m the sume real-time tha people living outside of cages
{do.A lt ofthat organizing a lot ofthat conversation happens over Twitter, happens
via Facebook, happens va Inftagram, So there are potentially millions of people vho




dont havea voice in the conversation. Which ie not to ay that ll imprisoned people
ae not finding ways te participate. There are man who are fading ways to engage
ies complicated to organize with imprisoned people and there are all kinds of
steactuol and tnticutionl barrier to doing that ke {wae sping, the peter ie et
‘ap to make people whe liven cages imsible and disappeared, So it's not without all
kinds of challenges. And agnn, I dont know necessarily i tha’ their intention oF
shavechat the mabilrtiont gases policing reer up te do,

But to rtsen to the moverent that is meast too that and is engaged in all,
ofthat: the aon and 203 prisoner led hanger sees in California really re-energized
she mavernent outside of prisons and fils and activated a lot of people. The sues
‘ave an injection of energy. Fat ofthat was the ineration ofthe leadership of people
‘who are impescacd in sobtary conGrement, ling usder the most eucrusating
candions that human beings can imagine. They managed ta study together, build
bridges across the rac divides that ave perpetually stoked by the prisen regimes,
‘nd were able co engage people outside of cages to take up this eal end indefinite
solitary corfinement—t0 get people in conditions that they could actualy live and
{ight from. The work of people imprisoned inside of Flicar Bay, Corcoran, High
Desert Folom.. wherever they ae Using and working, relly, wars shocin dhe arm
Jor the outside movement. And think that’s sustaiced and spread. California sit the
‘only place, and Califor wasn't the first plce. You alo see Alabama, Wisconsin,
West Viegai, Washington, and ethers In these places you sce imprisoned people
sing this last resort, theic own bodies, to highlight just how excrudating and
‘torturous these cenditins actually are.

lees lke the agrcement to End Hostile that came out of the Califorta
prison syste and wat then taken up by other communities across che state and
natiooally 4 an imporant organizing tool. i refocusesatteation to the fact that
people ore sways tnigaing inside, Thave are aleo imprienned people who ate bind
the elimination of the use of steriization on people in womea’s prisons, working to
increase visitation or organizing agzinit prison ard jal expansion or construction.
Imprconed organizers ave imporant players im all of ‘hese campeigne and any



TEP: So te shift gers bi, how do you suggest we think ahout the eatianship
between struggles aguinst the aforementioned aspecs of state-sondened racist
omestic warfare within US borders and the numerous declared and undeclared
lmpeitst wars abroad?

Rachel: Ttere can be no doubt that there is a direct relasonship between war-
making at home and war-making abroad. While Ido aot us the word “wa” Bahl a
the domestic context (and I know its aticulations are deren: here than in theaters
of combat in places lie Afghanistan or Iraq) Ido think that it is ax appropriate term.
to use regarding the genocidal practices at home—going back to the fis attempts 10
exterminate Indigenous people fiom this land, tothe engoing stuctunl and acral
phyzizal violence used to eliminate peoples’ access and opportunity to have
‘meaningful, eakhyylves. There are some concrere overlaps. There are O¥eHappIng,
technologies, forinstance. The weaponized drone chat was recently used to kill Mich
Jofnasom in Dallas has been used in Iraq; surreilarce technologies once tested out
such theaters of war are used regularly by domestic law enforcement; dita collectica
methods wed there ae aleoused hereetc,

| eink itis oversimplified to jest say “Oh, well did you know the miitary is
{BMIng extra equipment to law enforcement?” Thats tre and thats scandal. Hut that
is merely astiver of where the overlap of intarests and warfare practices is happening.
‘The people who are designing war co tke place in spaces outside of che United Stas,
are sfluencing the tactics aw enforcement herein the Unite Seat. think you
‘ean look at the borders as one of these places where that stuff coaleses strongly.
However this is also happering in cties, in counties, and rural areas across the
‘country. There's also 2 way that the logic oflaw enforcement in the United Sates is
taking on an increasingly explicit war-making tener. There ave very cleat exannpes of
this eich the declared War on Drugs or Wac a2 Gangs. Tie enforcement of these
‘wars uses 2 lot of the same tactics and techaclogie, but lon is premised on a sence
that there san enemythat needsto be targeted and eliminated here at home.

‘One way this has played out deamatcllys with the creation and growth of
‘the Department of Homeland Secure since Seprember nti and the feer-mongering
around temorism tha’s used to clamp dovn on the domestic setting. One small
‘example of this that we have been fighting in Cakland isa program called Urban
‘Shield 11s 48 hours of wir games simulations and trainings for SWAT and other
special law enforcement forces, The scenarios ae incredibly racist, realy
sencationalized, and millions upon milions of dolars of my county's money go into
‘hese war game competitions. Simultmeousy, they holf a trade expo, a you can fo
and get the latest night-visin gogales, the newes! uns, the atest tacking softwares
‘or stingray technology, or wbots and drones, In terms of es cultural impact, this
‘eiod of increased public arenion o2 the policing of protest youl also see hings
ike ties with things lice images of protesters in crosshairs for ale at these
tradeshows,





‘TLP: While we are on tis topic of repression, counterinsurgency warfare, and police
pying, could you spelca Title BR onthe politics of movement security? dont mean
‘his 26a relteration of criminological notions of ecurty and secuittzation. I sempy
smear, are thece certain prncipes, cranking satesies, or ways of collecivizing
politkal lubor that you suggest be embraced, st both organizational and larger


popular levels, which can stave off intrusion fom the state or the
comnterrevolutionary aspirations of iberal civlzocieny?

Rachel: Thisis dfnitelr not my aea of expeise auger, but I tell you what |
think [more ughter). think organizer should alaays operate onthe assumption
that theyre teing watched, tha thei cemmunicaton is being monitored, and that
‘hey ikl wil encoun: people inset oa provoking people an sharing iaformation
to diacredit and diarupt orgnizixg, paiculily organizing that challenges state
power That said 1 think beng sm and cogntant ofthat i dierent chan Seng
alyzed and paranoid.

My sense is that strong organizations area god line of seit defense. Song
corpnizauons, strong cations, and suong netwons. Tying 10 go Ht aloe, as
indvidual ra a hand of people is anays more risky than beng connected to an
‘organizing ifrasrucure and base. Bu people make diferent chciceszbout what
thet aces requir and what they tink i strateye. 1 fe quite certain that when
‘thngs get more powerll they get more eloely monitored. That Dalance between
roving forvard tcward politcal goals and using common sense caution it zally
important. 1 think callag out and not cooperating with law entereement aways
ses relly good tense to me [laughter Calling ou vis by law enforcemene. not
cooperating, and then leting people know thac is happeting—thoxe Kinds of things
at extremeyimpartant Having consistency in how people gto enter paces, when
beople gett partite i decision-making those Basie orzaizing guidelines used
tbyman organizations for along time, sso important

‘TAP: So in the sptit of Black August. we have pulled three quotes (rom Assata
‘Shakus autobiography that we hope to solicit your epinien on, The frst isas folows:

“Lave never relly ndrstoot exactly what a “Uber! though ince | have heard
“Werle exrea every cxnceineble opinion on evey cancivabe suet. As fara ican
(et yu hap etre rj, who ae face roc cpt dge like Reval Began
who came righ out and lt you know where theyre coning from. And onthe oposite
end, you hae the let, who ave suppsed to be comniced to justice, equality, ond
man ight. And eomechere in hetunen tenet pnt the eral efor om
concened, "Shera la the most meaningless wordin the dictionary. Mitry has shove,
Ine thi as ng at sme whe mide-ctss pepe can lve high on ce fog coke
‘actions to Europe sed ther children to private schoo’, and reap the beef of thelr
‘nite akin privileges then they are "Tberale” But when times yet how and money gets
{igh they pl ofthat Hara oak ond you thao tlting ta Adelphi. Thy
el sry forthe socalled undeprivieged estas slong 2 they con maintsn ther own
reyes”


‘what comes to mind ater hearing this quote?

Rachel: 1 think it's an interesting soint. In the movement against the prison
Induswtal complex we have suruggled a ot vith ... umm. beras laugter}—
tome of the most stalwart reformers where reform is thelr end game. als think
‘there is some interesting wiggle room there, What is necestary to fulfil their
comnatment to justice, and equabty, ard human rghes? I mean, iftheres2 kernel of
that there, then part of our work 26 onzanizers i o amplify our shared interests, to
compe them in that direction, and also to make that compelling. That doesnt mean.
wwe alvaye mueceed or that their class interests, racial Denes, gender Denes ot
‘ther soures of power they want to protect might not ultimately play them one woy
or the other, But thinking about where can we expot that kernel of shared interests
Interesting to me here rather than jutt giving wp and writing them off entirely. Of
course we need tobe cautious of what they are recommending and what they thinks
“practical” or “pragmacc.” But i's our job now to push on that and to make other
suggestions

‘TUP: Heres the second quote:

“Constructive erbiciam and slFerfcem ere exremelyImpertent or any evoitionary
organization, Wehout them, people tend drown nthe mistake, and nt lear fram
hen

Rachel: Yes. {coulda agree more [laughter]. So yes, what Astaa said [more

laughier. worry atl bit i thio peciod, sbouta Tack of intellectual rigor and lack

of diciplin, ae well as accurations of working "toc slowiy” or “not understanding” the
sense of urgency. You know, we saw this simiaely around the rise of the ami-
lobetnatien movement which Ualeo think ie a direct antecedest of what we are

seeing in terms of Black protest today. Similarly, 1 would say that about Occupy. 1

‘would call that a direst antecedent. I don't think we would be seeing what we are

seeing now without those previous movements.

‘TLP: Like a tactical ancecedent? Or something more ideological?

Rachel: {think both. But I don’t mean a one-to-ane overlap, or Ike: this led directly
to this But more in terms of some of the orientations towards organizing and the
cologictl parallels. So definitly not a onc to-one, but I think inuerced by quite
certainly

{think in there mements where there isa heightened investment in direct
action asthe prtuary vay ts mov, the pacing andthe wegency andl that i required


‘0 keep up the pace sometimes make it challenging lo engage people in longer term
lansing, oF study, or aosesament. Because people ave really Feling ike

time todo shat. That sad, if you dont engage with decades of revous organizing, if
you dont engage with where you are filling down, then you will make the same
‘aistakes over and over. Yeu wil make mibtakes made a month ago. You wil make
rnistales that were made ten years ago. You might make those anrway, but they
night be more productive mistakes if youve made a commitment © studying
movement history. The lst thing 1 say aboot this is that is also Fucking hard.
Nobody wante te confront the uf they've messed up on, or the tinge they think
they've done wrong, rot to mention talk about their vulnerabilities. | think chat also
‘chat Assata is describing is very diferent than a callout culture that’s Bke “u're
fucked of ltr just describe all the ways that you've messed up" Think what she's
talking about i disciplined assessment and refecton within organizational stings
‘on where we nea to improve, where we need totighten up, and where we need to be
stronger and smarter.



TLE: This point on the pace and tempo of struggle is so crucial! I are glad you
mention it There truly ‘s, a5 you say, this kind of militant presentism (and
historicity) unique to che zo-called "oft" that is az troubling fer movement-buildere
4s the gradaalist impulse of libeul antracist reform, This point also makes for a good
‘tanstion isto our final quote from Shakur, which goes as follows:



“jus: because you beeve in self defnss doesn imran you let yourstf be suckal into
defending yourelfon the enemys terns. One ofthe [Back Panther] party's mafor
weainesee, | thought, war the failure to ccely differentiate berwcen eboveground
polite! struggle and underround, clandestine miliary sggle”



sealy key concepts i Black people want to get fee But also forall people who want
to be fre. In my mind, there & a certain romanticsm of a very xed and marrow
conception of stdetense that think actually comes fom, well... actully
seading Astta, fr instance [laughter]. And that i not to criticize her oF people who
sea her. Ifs mere to say, what dots self-deferte lock like in 3016, versus 19 ot
‘p73? n my mind, seldefense requires an andestancing of shared fare. equies an
ssndertanding of how whit hagpans in El Salvador or what happens in Palestine oF
what happens inthe Philippines impacts my ability to fight for my own liberation.
‘Some of that hat to do with the natore of US imperialism. Some of thi also hasto do
With what we have learned, over mavy devades, abot the powe of htetatunaism
senerlly, and Third World solidarity in particule meson
‘What is required ffom our orgnizations or movements in relationship with
thew sectors internationally needs to be a determining force in how we sift power.
Building a sense of how we defend our own abilities to live healthy, meaning,
powerful lives in telationship to people in simi conditions around the globe is 2
way of thinking about selfdlefense that I am interested in exoloring futher. That
includes how we fight US imperialism. or how we fight for food security, or how we
fight againar brgescalegentifcaion andthe march of caitalism. Teward that end,
‘think ths ider of rot being sucked into defending ourselves on the enemy/s terms is
important. Building these networks Ive been descriting s one way of determining
‘our own couse Ieallows us to be prouctive instead of only cen

say “this is what we vant to build” Ina lot of ways an abaltiolst vision is an
‘example of this kind of >roactive vision. Its not just: “T want to eliminate
imprisonment” or“L want to eliminate the cops” It really is ar affirmative ideology
0d practice. Afimatively, his isthe work] want to live in therefore need to take
these steps to create the conditions that make that wold posible



I allows ust