Women, Witchhunts,
and the Reproduction
of the Capitalist World

A Conversation with Silvia Federici

The following interview was conducted by Labournet in Berlin in 2012 on
the occasion of the German translation of Federici's work Caliban and
the Witch - Women, the Body, and Primitive Accumulation. The interview

can be found on Labournet's website: http://de labournet tv/video/6381/
caliban-und-die-hexe

Minor edits have been made here and there to the text of the original, for
the purposes of readability. We also modified the title

ill-will-editions.tumblr.com

illwill@riseup.net
Women, Witchhunts,and
the Reproduction of the
Capitalist World

A Conversation With Silvia Federici about Caliban and
the Witch
1:am a teacher, | am a writer. This is my standard self-presentation. But,
above all, since at least the 1970's | have been working as a feminist and
an activist. | have been writing on women’s theary, women's history. And |
have also been involved in many other political movements, for example,
the anti-globalization movement, the movement around education, par-
ticularly around students’ and teachers’ struggles, the anti-death-penalty-
moverent. Presently, | am very interested in the Occupy-movement and the
movement around the commons

My relationship to the women’s movement in ltaly was through the Wages
for Housewark network. The international Wages for Housework campaign
came into existence in 1972. In the summer of 1972 a number of wom-
en from different countries met in Padova. That was the beginning of the
launching of the campaign for wages for housework. So my relationship to
wormen in ltaly was through this network, although it has continued long
beyond the end of the network itself. | till have many contacts.

1 began in the mid-70s. As | wrote in the preface to Caliban and the Witch,
1 was really interested in looking at the history of what used to be called
wormen’s oppression, and to see how it has changed capitalism, in response
to many of the debates that were taking place in the women's movement,
as to whether the gender-based discrimination was a legacy of tradition, a
remnant of previous patriarchal relation, or a type of social reality specific
to capitalism. So that is how | began this historical work

That started with the 19th century, and then for lack of good answers took
me back to the Middle Ages. And then, after a while, | began to collaborate
wiith Leopolda Fortunati. As | wrote in the preface of Caliban and the Witch,
we had an early version of this work in ltalian, but actually quite different,
that came out in in 1984 But there | began to sketch the discussion of the
witchhunt and the discussion of the transformation of the body in capital-
ism, but we also discussed other issues such as for example, the transfor-
mation that child-raising undergoes in the beginning of capitalist develop-
ment. So, this is a work that has accompanied me for decades. By 2004, |
had been with it almost thirty years.

We worked quite separately because | was in New York and she was in Pa-
dova. So we worked in a separate way, even though we kind of exchanged
some basic information. That [book] was concentrated on looking at dif-
ferent aspects of the reorganization of reproduction. For example, it has a
chapter on the transformation of forms of sociality, it has a chapter on, pre-
cisely, the redefinition of the figure of the child, it has a chapter specifically
on the question of sexuality. But the framework of that book was somewhat
different. In a way, it was before the beginning of globalization, and one of
the ideas there was to show that not only the classic Marxist approach to
primitive accumulation but also the Operaist approach to class struggle
and to capitalist development were unsatisfactory.

One of the themes in the introduction was “first comes society”, meaning
first comes the reproduction of labor power and then comes the factory,
which reversed, for example, the Trontian idea that the factory is the prime
mover, and, in a sense, the factory then also changes society. Our argument
was, that when you look at the history of capitalism you see that capitalism
first had to form a certain type of laborer and only in a later period creates
on the basis of the formation of that type of laborer a certain type of orga-
nization of work, particularly, a large-scale organization of industrial work.

No_| continued the work pretty much by myself, but one major development
that took place was the fact that by the early 80s | went to Africa. | was in
Africa for about three years, and that experience was fundamental because
in Africa | saw really the beginning of globalization, | saw what were the first
elements of the return of primitive accumulation, through the imposition of
structural adjustment and all the policies that were enacted in response to
the debt crisis.

Again, as | wrote in the introduction to Caliban, | was continuously brought
back to the period of primitive accumulation, but what was unfolding under
my eyes, included the fact that the discussion about the debt crisis, the con-
ditions posed by the IMF and the discussion of austerity came hand in hand
with a full ideological attack on women, which in many ways were accused
of having caused the crisis with their excessive demand and with their pres-
sure on the worker, the family member, etc. for better living conditions. So
the striking similarity between the processes that | saw unfolding in the 80's
in Nigeria and what | had been reading concerning the period of primitive
accumulation was very important for my own rethinking and my own plac-
ing of that discussion in a broader framework

The book is made of a number of chapters. The first one is a chapter about
the crisis of feudalism and, in particular, is a chapter that looks at the rea-
sons why capitalism developed, which was fundamental in my view in order
to understand what would be the modalities of the new structures that cap-
italism had to implement. So |, in particular, was concerned with demystify-
ing and rejecting the assumption that capitalism was a kind of evolution out
of econamic structures that had developed in the middle ages, and showing
that capitalism was a counterrevolution, that capitalism was the response
to a whole set of social movements of struggle. That was really important
for me because it connected to and gave me an insight into the struggle that
wormen had been making against feudal power. Therefore an insight into
why the development of capitalism had to start with this massive attack on
women.

This was for me one of the most exciting and satisfying researches, because
it brought me in contact with a whole set of social movements that | knew
vaguely of, like the heretic movement, from my early studies of European
history. | had no idea how important these movements had been, because
the heretic movement was really a movement of social struggle. It was a
movement against feudal power but also the beginning of commercializa-
tion and of social relations. | also began to see the role of women in this
heretic movement which was very strong. Women had a central presence in
those movements. So this was important, because it allowed me to say two
things in terms of understanding capitalism

Number one, capitalism came in response to a struggle, and, in particular;
in response to a labor crisis, a crisis of the command over labor that this
movement had produced. Therefore, not accidentally, capitalism was vitally
interested in creating relations that would maximize the exploitation of la-
bor.

Second, that within this struggle woman played an important role. The re-
fusal of certain relations with men and also a particular relation to procre-
ation had played an important role in this struggle. For example, the heretic
movement gave women a certain status of parity with men. Also, it was a
movement that was critical with respect to women's subordination but also
the exclusion of women from positions of some power, for example, in the
organization and administration of sacraments. So, that, too, was important
because it opened the possibility of understanding why [there was] this spe-
cific attack on women.

Yes, the second chapter is a broad analysis of the main processes that con-
stituted the transition to capitalism. In other words, it's a chapter that tries
to rethink the process of accumulation that Marx writes about at the end of
Capital Vol.1., but rethought from a different point of view. In fact, it writes
the history that Marx does not write, which s the history of primitive accu-
mulation from the point of view of the transformation in the reproduction
of Labor power, and also the transformation in the position of women. For
instance, it goes back and reexamines the enclosures, the separation of
workers from their land, but also examines not only the separation of the
workers from their land, but one of the key points in the analysis is that
this was only the beginning of the development of capitalism, of equal im-
portance was the separation of production and reproduction. In fact, this is
one of the main themes of that second chapter. In other words, capitalism
begins not only with the divorcing of the peasantry from their land, which, by
the way, also takes place in the New World, but begins with the separation,
not physical but in terms of social relations, of production and reproduction.

From an early stage, in the 16th and 17th century we begin to see that there
is @ whole set of activities that begin to not appear as economic activities,
and these are reproductive activities. And these activities were more and
more naturalized, gendered and identified as women's work. This is the
center of this chapter, to show when we speak of the precondition for the
development of capitalism we have to speak of a process that is much wider
than Marx assumed, and that also includes the formation of a whole sphere
of activities that is structurally devalued. That devaluation is o structural
that throughout all this transformation capitalism has always reproduced
that devaluation down to our day. | think extended globalization is a return
of primitive accumulation. At the center of it, you have that devaluation of
reproductive activities.

The third chapter is a chapter about the body. It looks at what happens to
the body in the capitalist organization of production and work. The reason
for that chapter is partially again to continue that history that Marx does
not write. Partially, it is to highlight the fact that capitalism is a very unique
system, different and specific with respect to other forms of exploitation in
that it sees Labor as a fundamental form of wealth, which is very important
in terms of the type of disciplinary regime that it has to implement. The mo-
ment in which you see that Labor is the fundamental form of wealth, there
is a whole policy towards the body that has to be put into place. Because
then the body is this great field of resources. They have to be maximized
they have to be developed. But, of course, there is dialectic of development
and repression. | am very critical here of Foucault. He always stresses the
moment of development that new productive capacities are developing. We
cannot write the history only from the point of view of repression. Very true,
but repression is the first moment. You cannot have the development of
new capacities in the body without the destruction of a whole set of forms
of behavior, practices, and beliefs that had been fundamental in the culture
of pre-capitalist society, including medieval saciety in Europe.

So, the third chapter is a description of the different strategies that through
the laws, through the transformation of the organization of everyday life,
capitalism puts into place. And, simultaneously, also it is a description of
how this transformation is then reflected in the mediated way in the discur-
sive, disciplinary field. In other words, in the intellectual, philosophical dis-
cussion of the time, for example, in the works of Descartes, in the works of
Hobbes. For instance, he interprets the rise of Cartesianism as a particular
response to the class struggle, and as a response to the needs of the new
discipline of work, the demands and processes of “self-exploitation”, self-
management and so forth.

Then there is the fourth chapter on the witchhunts. Thatis a long analysis of
how they took place, what the witch-hunt was in essence in different coun-
tries, with all the varieties depending on the particular countries. And then
fundamentally it is an attempt to explain how the witch-hunt relates to the
broader attack on the proletariat and the broader process of primitive ac-
cumulation that was taking place in this period. And it looks at the different
ways in which the witchhunt connects to these developments by looking at
who were the witches, from the point of view of the social status, and what
were the crimes they were accused of. It shows that there is a direct connec-
tion between witchcraft charges and the process of land enclosure. There is
als0 a relationship between witchcraft trials and the attack and redefinition
of women's sexuality, which is disciplined towards its reproductive role. Be-
cause one of the key tasks in this moment for capitalism is als to take con-
trol over women's reproductive capacities The control of women's bodies,
women’s reproduction, biological reproduction and women's sexuality are
extremely important, both in terms of the new discipline of labor but also in
terms of actually using the female body as an instrument for the reproduc-
tion of the working class, the biological recreation of a new generation of
workers, and it shows in fact how the witchhunt served these goals

Here again is a polemic, if you want, with Marx and Foucault. Both do not
recognize the importance of this event, which | see as fundamental to the
formation of modern capitalist society. It is one of the great massacres that
inaugurates the advent of modern capitalism. You have the slave trade, you
have the conquest of the Americas, you have the persecution of the witches.

The last chapter, in a way, takes some of the analysis of the previous four
to the New World. It shows that the persecution of witches is not purely a
European phenomena, but actually starting from the last part of the 16th
century, it is exported to the so-called New World'. In fact, the execution
of witchcraft is broadly used by missionaries and conquistadors, both as a
means of conquest, as a means of breaking down resistances, and specifi-
cally also to implement a new division of labor between women and men in
the New World as well. And it looks at it particularly with reference to the
Andes and with reference also to the struggles that women in the Andes al-
ready in the 16th century mount against colonization and against the domi-
nance of the priest, against the dominance of the new religion

The separation between production and reproduction was enforced in many
ways. One of the things, for instance, that you begin to notice in the 16th
century in many parts of Europe is the exclusion of women from the guilds
which had been the organization of workers. In Germany, in a number of
towns, you even have a municipal proscription that argues that women
should not engage in wage labor. And we have documents showing that
wornen had to appeal, for example, to the local municipalities to be allowed
to do work for a wage, often with the argument that they were widows and
they did not have other means of support.

Soyou find that within the course of a century the only jobs that women could
actually do were reproductive jobs, particularly as handmaids or domestic
workers or nurses. Being a wet nurse was a very common job for peasant
wormen, or washer woman. So from new forms of wage labor wormen were
excluded until the last part of the 18th century when women were inserted
into industrialization. They became the labor force for the new factories.
Together with that you have a massive expansion of prostitution. | speak in
the book about the fact that all of a sudden prostitution becomes a mass
phenomenon. And interesting enough, of course, it begins to be criminal-
ized, which it was not in the Middle Ages.

The state plays an extremely important part in this period in the creation of
a whole structure that supports the new sexual division of labor. | already
mentioned the regulations of work and of sexuality, for example, the crimi-
nalization of prostitution. but you also have a whole new set of regulation
that begin to punish in an unprecedented manner—for example, attempts
to control reproductive capacity. There is, for instance, a whole new polic-
ing of the process of procreation that has a tremendous impact on the life
of women. And any [transgression of that policy begins to be criminalized
and penalized with death. For instance, almost as many women were per-
secuted and executed for infanticide as for witchcraft

Infanticide in the 16th and 17th century was the second largest penalty or
crime for which women were penalized. And, of course, most important
of all, the state is the place from which all the legislation against witches
emanated. Unlike the witchhunts that are taking place today - of which |
will speak later ~ it is the state. The witchhunt is a mass persecution that
took place by totally legal means. It was launched in most countries by
state legislation. It is the state that declares: "witches, we have to perse-
cute them, the population has to assist us in this task™ .. These ordinances
are then read in the churches, then propagated throughout the villages and
the towns. Then everybody is asked to take a position, on one side or the
ather. If you do not collaborate, of course, you are in danger of being ac-
cused as a witch. So the state has a central role in the formation of the new
sexual division of labor and also the new gender roles.

Yes, | have a very different view. There is a liberal view that the figure of the
capitalist is a development of the figure of the merchant. That at a certain
point in the 13th and 14th century, with the revitalization of commerce after
the big breakdown due to the “barbarian” invasions, commerce starts again
in the urban centers of the Middle Ages. We begin to see forms of proto-
capitalism, and from that figure some people even argue—on the basis of
long distance trade to procure luxuries for the nobility—that capitalism de-
velops out of this ground

1 do not read it that way. When you see the kind of policies and the kinds of
developments that capitalism puts into place, and you see it not in one area
only but you see it on a more global scale, you realize that in fact the main
preoccupation that the proto-capitalist class had was to regain control over
work. Capitalism comes out of a crisis. Itis clearly the response to the crisis
of a whole set of structures, to the fact that you have an aristocratic class
but also a merchant class

Not only the aristocratic class, but the famous merchant class from which
capitalism is supposed to have developed, are in crisis by the 14th century.
And they are in crisis after the weight of labor struggles. And capitalism
responds directly to those labor struggles. The best evidence that | bring to
it, and that is not my discovery, is the intensity of struggles in the urban and
rural areas in this period, for example, the peasant wars that sweep through
Europe, in Spain, France, Germany, England, and also the struggles of arti-
sans. S0 you see a structure that cannot reproduce itself. And then you see
the response that it takes, for example, the Conquest. Capital is not a new
class. Itis a new class from the point view of social relations, but it is basi-
cally the feudal lord in England who recycles himself. He is the merchant

Itis basically the clergy that launches a whole set of parallel but combined
developments. The conquest, and so by externalizing, responding to the
crisis by acquiring new assets, acquiring new laborers through external
conquest. The Americas provide the bullion that creates a market economy
in Europe. It is the silver that comes from the New World that creates the
market economy. So it is very clear that it [capitalism] does not come out
of an evolutionary process. That the forces that lead to capitalism were not
present in Europe

What was present in Europe was the crisis of a system that could not repro-
duce itself, was the crisis of a ruling class that could not reproduce itself
And that ruling class had to transmogrify itself and had to go outside of its
borders to procure the assets, to procure the labor, to procure the wealth
that would enable it to relaunch itself in a new way. And it is the process. |
like to say that capitalism begins to form as a system, as a result of many
developments, of many initiatives which begin to take on a particular con-
figuration...that begin to be coordinated and take on a particular configura-
tion. By the end of the 16th century it is already very visible in the form of a
new global economy, the beginning of a global economy.

Two things are problematic in Marx and primitive accumulation. First of all,
he only sees as crucial, as foundational of the new capitalist system, this
process of separation of the workers from the means of production, the
expulsion of the peasants and so forth. That is very important, but it is not
sufficient. And even adding to it the attack, the bloody legislation against
the vagabond, that is very important but is not enough. One first thing that |
wanted to show is that there is a lot more than that. When you speak of the
separation we begin to have the formation of this other sphere of activities
that begin to disappear. to become invisible, that they are now naturalized
as women's work_ That is a whole area that Marx does not see. The other
part of it, and of course there is a big debate on it now, and | have to say.
Marx s not clear on that point, 50 you can stretch Marx to say both sides in
my view. The question is whether for Marx primitive accumulation is a pro-
cess that occurs at the beginning of capitalism and is specific to that phase,
or that is a process that continues and returns. So there are many positions
on that. Whatever Marx may have said, there are many statements that may
lean one way or the other, but my position is that primitive accumulation
iis not fixed, is not an event that is limited to the origin of capitalism. is an
event that has continuously returned through the history of capitalism. If
you want you can even say that it is present in every moment of the capital-
it relation, because every moment of capitalist relations is premised on
the separation of people from their means of reproduction. But outside,
when you Lok at the history of capitalism you see those great moments of
return of primitive accumulation, which to me are those moments in which
capitalism is in crisis and in which in order to regain the command over the
process of accumulation the capitalist class has to engage in this massive
attacks, through war, through expropriation, for instance, colonization. It is
not an accident that the heyday of imperialism coincides with the peak of
workers’ struggles in Europe, the peak of the socialist movement in Europe
i the last part of the 19th century. | read for example, World War | or Warld
War Il as those moments in which capitalism needs to disaccumulate the
working class.

While the essence of capitalism is the accumulation of labor power, those
wars are the disaccumulation which is a disaccumulation of the combative
potential. What was destroyed on the fields of World War | and World War
I1is the working class that has made the Russian Revolution, which was a
potential also in Europe.

It is important to keep this in mind: primitive accumulation is connected
to this important moment in which capitalism is in crisis and needs the
command over labor. In looking at the process of globalization today to un-
derstand what globalization is, where it comes from, what it is attempting
to achieve. | think this is very much in line with the project of the capitalist
class in those moments, like, for example, the launching of colonial con-
quest, the launching of the imperialist drive towards Africa and so forth
What we see through the angle of globalization is the goal of expanding the
labor market, expropriating people. The expansion of the labor market as a
precondition for restoring the discipline of work.

Yes, it is a critique of that, because | think that this nice scheme of the
forces of production and the relations of production suggests that you could
separate the two. That once you have liberated the forces of production a
certain type of arganization of work including technology from the particu-
lar property relations that are typical of capitalism, then you have the con-
dition for a communist society. That view | am completely critical of. First
of all, you cannot separate the so-called ‘relations of production’. Take the
division of Labor: most productive from the point of view of the accumulation
and disciplining of labor, of the organization of work, has been the sexual
and international division of labor, the creation of different labor regimes.

You cannot separate the development of the productive forces from the type
of relations that are actually put into place. [The productive forces are] de-
veloped through the sexual division of labor, which means that the develop-
ment of the productive forces is at the same time the development of a divi-
sion within the working class. So the idea that you can make the separation
of ane from the other, that capitalism can just disgorge this technology and
organization of techniques and now we can take them out and insert them
into a form of egalitarian relations, etc., is a myth, because part of this pro-
ductivity has been precisely that capacity to organize hierarchy, to organize
division within the working class.

In recent time there has been a decline of those studies. Those studies
peaked for a while as a consequence of the women's movement. It was the
women's movement that brought back the question of witchhunting. There
was a number of studies that were inspired by it. But now it is declining
again. Generally most of these studies either stayed away from trying to find
a general motivation for this persecution, and they have only concentrated
on analyzing the enabling condition, or it was possible because of this, it
was possible because of that. But they never try to trace a cause or connec-
tion. Or if they have tried to trace a cause or connection, they have gone to
the religious war, the reformation, basically, religious conflicts. There has
been little atternpt to connect. Except, actually, feminists have been really
the first who have really begun to connect the question of the witch-hunts to
processes of primitive accumulation, to the expulsion of the peasantry. For
example, Starhawk and Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English, hinted the
connection between the expulsion of the peasantry from the commons and
the slave trade and the witch-hunt

Previous analyzes by historians have been very unsatisfactory in that way.
Some have spoken about the transformation, the christianization of the
peasantry that was necessary as a cultural means to prepare for capi-
talism. My analysis is that the witchhunt is obviously a very fundamental
process. | have to say one exception, very important, that | found as | was
working doing this research. An Italian historian and philosopher Luciano
Perinetto who | quote. He was very clear. He is to me quite exceptional, in
that he states that the witchhunt is a fundamental development in the rise
of capitalism, that it is one of those developments which are at the gate of
the rise of capitalism.

He also saw, unlike others, that the witch-hunt was not only European but it
was also a global phenomenon, particularly a phenomenon that in the 16th
and 17th century was brought to the American colonies. In my view, when
you look at the chronology, the period in which the witchhunt takes place,
when you look at who the witches were, the means of the persecution and
what sort of crimes they were accused of, and the effects, the consequenc-
es of that persecution, you are immediately brought into a world which is
not the world of feudal relations.

For example, a classical argument coming from the enlightenment by his-
torians was that this was the fruit of clerical superstition under the domi-
nance of the church. The witch-hunt was due to superstition and the domi-
nance of the church in the Middle Ages. Now, the witch-hunt in Europe,
when you look at it chronologically begins to take place in a very massive
way by the late part of the 16th century. You have a crescendo of witchhunt-
ing that starts in the mid-15th century. Around 1450 or 1460 we begin to
see the first demanologies, 1480 you have the Malleus Maleficarum which
was one of the main texts by Domenican friars, one of the main texts used
then for many years by witchhunters. And we also begin to see more trials
But the moment in which the witchhunt massified, in particular in places
like Germany, Scotland, Switzerland, parts of Italy, England, France, less in
Spain - there were not that many witch-hunts in Spain, a very interesting
exception that is useful to study - in France, it is really the period between
15705 and 1650s. And witch-hunts continued up for another century, but
diminishing in importance and in number.

When you look at that period, it is a very interesting period. It is a period
in which there is nothing left of feudalism, you are in the middle of the de-
velopment of capitalist relations, and you are in the middle of the fiercest
attack on the workers population that you can imagine. Because this is
the moment when, in conjunction with the colonization of the Americas,
you have the arrival of the bullion which is like the wind that destroys the
economic relationship throughout a good part of Western Europe, creating
a massive process of pauperization, the kind of pauperization that we have
seen in Africa with structural adjustment, monetary devaluation. You see
it in Europe in the very period of the witch-hunt. It is a period of massive
struggle against enclosures, in which women had a very prominent place,
massive uprising

It is also, of course, a period of expulsion of people from their land, and
itis the period in which all the nuts and bolts [were installed] in terms of
new legislation, new regulation on the local and national level, regulating
where workers are supposed to live, regulating sexual relationships, regu-
lating prostitution, regulating reproduction, where you see the beginning
of a reproductive code being put into place, as well as the formation of the
workhouse. People being closed into workhouses if they refuse to work etc
When you look at this chronology you have to ask yourself: what is the re-
Lationship to the witchhunts? And when you begin to see who these women
were, you see that there is a direct correspondence between the women
who have been accused of being witches and those rebel subjects that capi-
talism was trying to destroy. Rebel in the sense that they were rebelling
against the new rules, but also rebel because they represented a world that
capitalism had to destroy. Whether they rebelled or not, they represented a
whole network of practices and belief and values that in one way or another
was being destroyed This is what | tried to bring out. And, of course, it is
the beginning. The hope with which | have written this book, has been that
others will pick up that work. | believe there is a lot more to be discovered
But | think this book offers some general guidelines. For example, the re-
lationship between the witchhunt and enclosure. The issue of land is very
important. Maybe we will come back to it later. Similarly. the relationship
between witchhunting and the reorganization of family life, the reorganiza-
tion of sexual relationships. The fact that very often the witch is a prostitute
or has been a prostitute in her youth, or she has children outside of of mar-
riages, or she has had a sexual relationship outside of her class

Many women who had relationships with men of the upper classes were
accused of being witches. So of course the question of abortion, infanticide,
contraception, all those practices are immediately demonized, are immedi-
ately labeled as practices, that are geared to destroy the life of children etc
This is what the chapter on the witchhunt tries to show. As a major initiative
by the state against a large group of people the witch-hunt could be used in
many different ways. | often make a parallel with the War on Terror today.
The War on Terror today can be used to attack a broad variety of people, for
example, unionists, activists. We have seen it recently in the United States
how the War on Terror can be used also to discipline very peaceful move-
ments, but they represent a certain threat to state and capital policies.

There has been a big dispute about the size of the witch-hunt. Unfortunately
this is a question that we will never be able to resolve because so many ar-
chives were destroyed during the two world wars. As a result, particularly
in Germany a lot of archives and material has been lost, but not only there
Also there are still a lot of archives and materials that have not been ana-
yzed
There is a capillary work that has to be done through churches, small vil-
lages and so forth. That work is by no means completed. Nevertheless, |
would say that in my estimate, from the arguments and documentation that
I have seen, we are talking about maybe 300,000 women, roughly speaking,
in the period of a couple of centuries. There are wild figures that were often
quoted, like millions. | do not think that this is possible. There is no evidence
for it. But | think that several hundred thousand is a more feasible figure
The opposite extreme is the idea of 6,000 or 7.000 which has been achieved
just by counting some of the main trials that took place. But in many cases
the way the trial of a witch or a group of women was reported is several
women were killed, several women were burned, were executed, without
numbers been given.

In terms of the making of a witch: The making of a witch could be highly
varied. There is a lot to be said here about the transformation that the or-
ganization of the witchhunt goes through in the course of the two and a half
centuries, when it climaxed. For instance, it is interesting that at the begin-
ning the charges are always against an organization, against a collectivity.
More and more, as time goes by, the charges are more against individual
people, which in my view reflects the increasing atomization of relations, the
individualization of social relations. A very classical way in which a women
is labeled a witch is that she generally is an older women, has to depend
on her neighbors, neighbors who are better off, for sustenance. She begs
Many witches, especially in England, were beggars, but not only in England.
These were older women.

Clearly, the fact that older women had to beg to support themselves, had
to go from house to house to ask for some wine, for some milk, for some
bread, already indicates that a ot has taken place. Because in the Middle
Ages you would not have this situation. In the Middle Ages provisions were
made for the elderly. You would not have older women living alone. Usually
there would be a transaction in the servile or in the peasant community. In
the peasant community, working at the dependence of a feudal lord, there
were provisions made for all the people when the younger generation took
over the house and took over the management of the land. So the fact that
these women were alone and begging indicates exactly a society that has
gone through the process of enclosure. So they beg, often they are refused.
Together with capitalism comes a new ideology that disparages the idea of
charity. And they curse, and upon being cursed immediately they are ac-
cused of having procured the death of a child or the illness, at least of an
animal and so forth. Or they are accused of storms, for example there are
storms that destroy the crops of the community and then particular women
are accused of having induced these storms. So when you look at the phe-
nomenology of the witchhunt there are certain things that really stand out.

The first thing that stands out is that the first act of the witchhunt comes
from the above. In other words, it comes with legislation. And this legisla-
tion is brought to the village level or to the town level, it is brought through
the priest, at the church, in other words, it is an ideology and it is the fear
that is propagated from above. And it is propagated in ways that leave no
doubt that i you do not collaborate you will also be entangled in the network
of accusation. Second, when you look at this phenomenolagy you see that
there is a landscape in which the witchhunt occurs, that has gone already
through major economic reorganization because you find there is already a
polarization in terms of the distances between people have become much
wider than those that existed in the feudal communities, that you already
have a population of people who are landless or who have no means of
subsistence, which, again, would have been very uncommon in the feudal
society.

So the making of a witch is a making that has many components. And more
and more you have a literature of demanology creating the figure of the
witch. That is very interesting. They are now telling: These people you have
to be aware of. These people do not deserve any type of help, these people
are dangerous. So increasingly they are creating a mass psychosis, at least
in certain sectors of the population, warning them that those who are the
victims of the new transformation in economic relations not only do not
have to be helped but they are potentially dangerous. This is the environ-
ment in which accusation of witchcraft proliferates.

I think that the book has had a certain influence on the feminist scene, and
not only the feminist scene. | think it has had a very good reception, and |
think it had a very good reception because in a way it filled a certain histori-
cal hole that was very prominent in terms understanding the first phase of
capitalist development. In that way, it has placed the question of the witch-
hunt again at the center of interest in terms of various social movements.
Particularly because we are witnessing a return of witchhunting. | think this
is a very important fact we have to concentrate upon.

In the last three decades, hand in hand with globalization there has been,
in many parts of the world, particularly Africa but also India, also Nepal,
a return of witchraft accusations and of attacks and physical assaults on
women. Many have been killed. It is calculated at least 20.000 to 30.000
women have been killed just in Africa. For example, in countries like South
Africa, Tanzania, Ghana and many others. Many women have been chased
from their villages, in the north of Ghana, in Zambia, that is another country,
Nigeria. In the North of Ghana there are witches camps, there are camps in
which women who have been expelled from their communities have been
forced to go. And they live there in very miserable conditions, with some
money provided by NGOs and supervision by some local chiefs

So this question has generated some interest, not as much as | would have
expected. From a disciplinary point of view, those who have studied this
phenomenon being predominately anthropologists. Their interest has not
even been so much on the attacks on women but their interest has been
primarily on the way the discourse of the occult has returned in the political
discourse in Africa. For example, authors like Jean and John Comaraff, two
anthropalogists who are quite famous. They have written a number of books
that analyze why now politicians in Africa are attributing to themselves
magical power. But that is a very different thing than this specific attack on
women, which in a way brings back much more directly the memory of the
witch-hunts of the 16th and 17th century, because today again it is women
who are older, who are poor, who are predominantly in the rural areas, and
they are again accused of causing the death of relatives, causing the death
of community members by evil practice

For me, the work | have done on the 16th and 17th century witch-hunt has
been extremely important, because immediately it has predisposed me to
read this new witchhunt in conjunction with the transformation in economic
relations that are taking place in Africa and other parts of the world today.
which take the shape of massive attacks on means of subsistence, land ex-
propriation, land-grabbing. The effect of these developments on relations
between men and women, the fact that women are increasingly excluded
from forms of communal property, the fact that there is an interest among
local chiefs, local authorities - in complicity with foreign companies - in
bringing an end to communal land structures and expropriating people
from them, all of that clearly is in the background of these new witchhunts

1would add an important element. It is also the campaign that international
institutions are waging against the forms of subsistence that women have
set into place and have defended in response to structural adjustment. For
example, in response to structural adjustment that has [dismantled] entire
communities. A lot of women have taken over land, even in the urban areas,
and have begun to produce some food, have begun to create all kinds of
subsistence-related forms of trade, food production and so forth that have
enabled the community to support itself. These are now very much under
attack, by the World Bank and all kinds of agencies who are saying that it
iis exactly those kind of activities that are the cause of poverty in the world,
that actually what women need, communities need is capital. is some mon-
ey, like the Grameen Bank, micro-credit etc. | have written a number of
articles on this matter. | have tried to apply some of the same methodology
that | used to understand the witchhunts of the past to understand those of
the present, and | see that they are effects of the globalization, they are not
cultural realities, but they are effects of globalization

Thatis a very interesting question, because | have come to the conclusion -
and here, too, is another field that | really wish somebody [would take upl,if
1 had five lives... Because my view is that the witch-hunt has never ceased
As much of an exaggeration as that may appear to be. Today there is a
witchhunt against women taking place in many forms. First of all, the im-
age of the witch has continued to serve as a disciplinary instrument against
wormen. At the end of Caliban and the Witch | have some powerful images
which show that the female Communards, the so-called Pétroleuses were
portrayed as witches. So when the capitalist imagination wishes to attack
women it immediately returns to the image of the witch. This bestial crea-
ture, all sex and lust, bodily pure matter, no mind, ready to align herself to
the devil, and so evil, irrationally evil. The image is there.

And then, over the years, in looking at, for example, all-time Hollywood pro-
ductions, from the 40's, 50's and 60's, | realized that the image of the witch
has always been in the background. So many movies. When we speak of
the witch, she does not have to be represented on the top of a broom, or on
the top of a goat: this image of the all-evil woman that, for reasons that are
indiscernible, is out to destroy men, or to destroy particular men. That has
continued as a thematic idea, for example, through many Hollywood pro-
ductions, down into the present. As in Fatal Attraction, particularly the at-
tack on the woman now who is all into her career and forgets her maternal
duties. There has been a return of figures of witches connected with that
theme. It is very interesting, for instance, now to look at the differential way
in which Harry Potter, who is the good boy, who does magic in many good
ways, and there is Narnia [The Chronicles of Narial, the bad witch that
movies have portrayed and shown to children, and she is again the all evil
female figure

1 would say, in that sense, the witchhunt has never stopped, ideologically.
The witch is still a very potent image, an ideology. There is a witchhunt
also taking place in another way, because, for instance, in the United States
there is an attack on women that seeks to regain, to restore the control of
the state, the control of men over their bodies, over their labor, and it par-
ticularly intensifies during times of global crisis, when women are expected
to go back home and do a lot of unpaid labor.

So you have, for example, this legislation in the US that wants to again con-
trol and penalize women for any kind of things they do when they are preg-
nant, and it looks at women really as machines for the production of labor
power. So there are women now who were accused of first-degree murder
in the US because they used drugs when they were pregnant. So now you
have to be scared that if you drink wine or use a drug you may be accused
of attempted murder against the child you are carrying in your belly. And
similar legislation is being contemplated in many states. So | would say that
particularly with the escalation of the global crisis witchhunt, the war on
women is still with us.
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es within the feminist movement.

Absolutely. | think that what | described is precisely a response to the move-
ment, because it was the women's movement that brought back the inter-
estin the witches, brought back also an evaluation of the figure of the witch.
Historically grounded or not, the witch became a sort of image, a symbol
of the rebel woman, that the women's movement took on. In Rome, for ex-
ample, in the course of a big demonstration Italian feminists would make a
magical round singing “Tremate, tremate, le streghe son tornatel”, “Trem-
ble, tremble, the witches are back!” So that identification with the witches
was very powerful, and it was one that inspired many books, beginning with
my book. A politicization of the question of witch-hunting... Because the
witchhunts had been completely erased, not only erased from history, but
depoliticized and ridiculed, | mean, ridiculed in grotesque way. In the United
States on Halloween children go out and “Trick or Treat”. A whole genocide
inwhich hundreds of thousands of women were murdered and horribly tor-
tured and entire communities devastated is reduced to a lttle game that
children are playing, you have these little girls dressed with the hat of the
witches that was put on their head before being burned in many cases and
they sport it with no idea that many women met their horrible death that
way. So it was very important for the women’s movement to actually break
their silence and to re-politicize that issue and to reopen that history.

| ask af think it is iy

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1 distinguish in this sense the historical and the political, or the different
concepts of political. | am ready to support the use of the image of the witch
in that way. At the same time, | would say that the way that the persecution
of the witches and witches themselves are understood in certain sections
of the women's movement is something that, in my research, | cannot sup-
port. This idea, for instance, that the witches in Europe were some sort
of alternative religion, they were a sect of women, ancient, fertilty-related
rituals, which was a theory that in the 20s was launched by a British an-
thropolagist. That is a view | cannot [support]. Witches were in many case
proletarian women - | call them proletarian in the broad sense of the term
- poor, lower class, rural or urban women.

Sure they carried with themselves old practices and forms of existence
from a pre-capitalist sociality. For example, women throughout the Middle
Ages in the urban and rural communities of Europe did most of their work
collectively. If you washed, you did it collectively, you harvested collectively.
So there was an intense collective Life. And that collective life, of course,
was also a source of power. And that is destroyed in the witchhunt. But the
idea that the witches were a specific group with a specific culture and this
women had a sort of feminist consciousness—this | have not been able to
find any foundation for:

Yes, that too, exactly. Because the women accused of being witches were a
wide variety of women. They were peasant women who were in struggle over
Land, there were women who were actually practicing healing. They were go-
ing from house to house, marking, etc. It was not necessarily that they had a
particular form of spirituality. One of my female ancestors in Italy, whom my
mother told me about, made a living even in the 19th century marking ani-
mals. In other words, you make certain signs and pronounce certain words
and probably three centuries ago she would have been burned as a witch
So the healing of animals and humans was a profession for many women
And certainly a source of power, of predicting the future. Other women were
accused because of their sexuality, because they had illegal relations, be-
cause they had children out of marriage, etc
Sothere is a wide variety of female figures. To speak of the witch, the perse-
cution being an attack on particular forms of spirituality is something that
50 far has no historical verification.

My proposal would be. . | think | like the book whenever it is published to be
a beginning in terms of research and analysis of the witchhunt. | hope that
the book is a beginning, that somebody takes this book, reads it, and starts
of doing new work, and there is going to be another Caliban and the Witch
ten years from now or whatever. Because | think that there is a lot of issues
that should be explored. | myself would like to

There is so much work to do now that | am continuously divided betweeen
the desire to continue that work, which | try as best as | can, particularly, in
relation to the present, and moving on to what is happening today in par-
ticular in the new struggles. For instance, | have been very interested in
developing the theme of the enclosures, the witchhunt and enclosures. In
‘what specific ways the witchhunt relates to the question of enclosures, land
enclosure, forest enclosure, that's one part of it, but it is an important part
of it and it certainly relates also directly to what is happening now. You have
new witchhunts in the context of massive land-grabbing. And it is now rec-
ognized, every journalist now recognizes, both in Africa and in India, which
are the main places for this new witchhunting, that the connection with land
iis primary. Of course, it is never exclusive of gender relations, gender hier-
archy, because: why women?

So, obviously the issue of hierarchies, the issue of a certain conception of
femininity, is in there. But enclosures and land-grabbing provide an im-
portant context. | personally hope that somebody picks up this direction
1 have done some work, for example, trying to show that when you look at
the accusations, particularly in the first period of the witchhunt in Europe,
the accusations relating to animals, the charges that the witches are hurt-
ing animals, or they are hurting the crops through their storms—you can
almost recompose it, like a puzzle whose pieces all fit together—you see a
population which on one side has been expropriated, has had its land ex-
propriated, and the other side ane sees the expropriators.

So this kind of analysis is what | would hope would be taken on as a result
of this new publication. Of course, in each case, to see the connection with
the present, because to me the witchhunt is st with us. One thing | have
learned about doing history is that these big events, in particular, these big
injustices, these big crimes that capitalism has committed, are not in the
past, cannot be archived. They have to be kept here with us abways. Because
in a way they structure the horizon, and they structure a certain under-
standing of what capitalist society is, what capitalist relations are
(13

| was concerned with demystifying &
rejecting the assumption that capitalism was
a kind of evolution out of economic struc-
tures that had developed in the middle ages,
and showing that capitalism was a counter-
revolution, that capitalism was the response
to a whole set of social movements of strug-
gle....It gave me an insight into the strug-
gle that women had been waging against
feudal power...and why the development of
capitalism had to start with

this massive attack on women.

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