Rattling The Cages: “Until All Are Free” (Jason Hammond, Jeremy Hammond)
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![Jason Hammond: It ended up being 14 months. It was a three and a half year sentence. Eric King: Was that in a prison or did they keep you stuck in the jail? Jason Hammond: I was actually bonded out. 1 did about maybe two months in Cook County Jail, and I did about another 14 months in southern Illinois, Vandali or “Klandalia” as it’s called, because it ‘Eric King: Because of the obvious reasons. Jason Hammond: Even though i’ ke, of course, they say Tlinois is Northern State,it would be like every week a big truck would drive by h a giant Confederate flag, just driving right in front of the damn thing, front of you, the whole yard, and the whole prison like they’re trying to make it known. Jeremy Hammond: Probably one of the guards Eric King: Then Jeremy, how much time and where did you do your time? Jeremy Hammond: Alrght, so the second bid I was at MCC Chicago for the first two weeks then transferred to New York, MCC New York, and also MDC Brooklyn. I was there for about a year and a half to 20 months or something like that pre-trial until 1 was sentenced, then I’m skipping Oklahoma and Grady and all that because [they are transfer prisons where he did not spend a great deal of time.] Let’s see, L was at Manchester for four years, then I actually made it to alow, Milan in Michigan, for about a year, Then 1 was sent to Memphis, a federal medium, back again. Got a bogus assaul case, and then, oh yeah, that’s right, the contempt hearing. thought 1 was going to get out, three months to the door, then they subpocnacd me, wanted to hold me in contempt, and so that began. The next year and a half or so 1 was at Alexandria Detention Center outside of DC, which is where the eastern district of Virginia was holdi WikiLeaks [hearings]. Eric King: T heard you were the cook there. Jeremy Hammond: Yeah. Well,you know, they starve you to death, W g thecages](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 10.png)
![especially in the county jails. I mean, Iost a lot of weight, especially the last two years my sentence, because, you know, you spend a lot of time in the yard when you’re pushing weight, and you’re cating as much as you can. Then the last two years they dogged my ass, man. 1 was in solitary for ‘most of it and eating county jail food, one hot meal a day type of thing, but 1did manage to weasel my way into the kitchen. So 1 was cooking for about 500 people for six months. T worked all types of jobs, like maybe you would have if they didn’’t dog your ass in solitary. [Laughter all around.] But, yes, 1 worked in the kitchen. Hey, is how you eat, and I was eating good, off the guards trays sometimes. Eric King: 1 love hearing that! So, this is a unique opportunity for us, because we have two people that were in two different types of prison, but both in prison. It might be old for you guys to talk about the differences, but I find this wildly interesting. Ilike to talk about the race dynamics, the rec opportunities, the lockdowns. 1 want to know the difference between state prison and federal prison, as you guys experienced it So, whoever wants to go first, just go first, but I want to hear all of i Jeremy Hammond: Il go first dynamics. 1 mean, you’ve been in the fed, so you already know that it’s an extremely racially segregated, extremely cliqued-up type of environment Eric King: So, in Midwest prisons and in the prisons you were at, ‘Manchester, and maybe not Milan, but Greenville, those were still race. based? Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, very much so. Who you could cell with and stuff ke that, but, of course, that’s not actually true. You could be a race traitor. You know what T mean. You dor’t have to go with the flow. And, honestly, its the type of thing where the fight doesn’t end after you’re arrested, or after you’re in jail. The courts, that’s the place you fight, and then when you’re in the yard, that’s another fight. Dismantling systemic racism. The Midwest is ke that, but 1 was fortunate that 1 was able to ‘meet up with a bunch of folks from Chicago, and at some places it was the Midwest car and some places it was just like the Chicago car. I’m not a gang member, but they’re cool, they took me in so to speak. With the \white boys, obviously, they’re not into that at all the way I was I wwho you sit with, who you eat with, who you cell with. ationg the cages "](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 11.png)
![‘motherfucker’s been there for 10 years.” Damn bag of bones type shit, ‘man. They need to shut that thing down. And during the COVID ‘pandemic, too, that was the number one COVID spot in the country actually. Jason Hammond: There was a super spreader, like they traced maybe one quarter ofallcases in llinois came from Cook County, at least that’s what the data said at the time, Cook County Jail was definitely a super spreader. Eric King: 1 was being held for my second charge in the Englewood SHU, \when COVID hit. When it happened, they took away soap, and said they couldn’t afford it anymore. So we didn’t have soap, and then they said the commissary out of medicine, so we couldn’t buy medicine and couldn’t buy soap! You fucking pukes! Jeremy, you were at mediums and lows. Those are sometimes known for better recreation and better food. Did you experience that? What was your rec situation like, did you have sports, did you have hobbies? Jeremy Hammond: They’re not often locked down as much, obviously, as some of the higher levels, or the supermax. But yeah, they’re considered pens. The lows and mediums are considered open, where every hour they do a move and you have minutes to either go somewhere or back from somewhere, like rec. They often do rec at leastlike three times, ‘morning, afternoon, and evening sometimes, unless there is astaff shortage or lightning or whatever. So you can walk in circles around the track During the summer they sometimes have sports and stufflike that, so 1 always tried to play softball every year that I could. I played a total of eight years of prison softball,so that’s kind of cool. Once in a while I’ve been at one or two places that also have a music program, so 1 was able to fuck around. I actually learned guitar in prison my first bid, because my brother sent me guitar tabs and music theory, stuff like that. 1 was able to teach myself guitar by checking out a guitar with your ID, and you use it for a couple hours. That was awesome, Eric King: 1 don’t remember which one, but in like 2014 or 2015 one of you was in the ABC [Anarchist Black Cross] newsletter, and you were listing the bands that they had on the MP3 thing so other people would know. g theages S](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 15.png)
![which is something I would like to talk about later, because we’re definitely trying to stop this tech fascist dystopia. ‘Eric King: 1 once sent an email to my wife. This was when 1 did a month anda halfat a low when I first started, and I sent an email, and I said like “Ilove you this many times." And it was like I just typed random numbers, andhad to go in and talk to SIS, and they said they’re going to try to prosecute me. They said it was like passing messages. These fucking lowlife seum, Jason, did you face anything like that? You were at a minimum, but it’s still prison. Was there anything like that for your calls or mail or anything? Jason Hammond: I did get a ot of mail, which was key. And we know and this needs to be said. We need to continue on. That was really what kind of flagged me in their mind. Like, okay, why i this person getting mail? So they looked me up and they said, “Yeah, we know who you are. You’re not doing anything.” 1 did do a few writings that were published here and there, but 1 didn’t get as much serutiny as I could have, They wanted to let me kno that they were aware, and they also didn’t want a scene because Ivas gettinga lot of books and letters. I would say tht they were curious about me, but I didn’t have any reason to particularly think that they needed to put me anywhere particular, or had any evidence that they were doing any monitoring of the letters. ‘Eric King: 1 do want to talk about support. There’s good and bad about prison support, for real. None of us are perfect, none of them are perfect, but it is a lfeline. 1 also know that different parts of our movement supportin different ways. Like the Earth Liberation Front or Animal Liberation Front people will get a thousand letters a day. I talked to Jake [Conroy] whao said he was getting 100 letters a week. Anti-fascists will get that crowd. You both were very different in your charges, so I’d like to. know about the individual support you received. Anything that you wish they had known that they weren’t able to do or didn’t do? Jeremy Hammond: I mean, honestly we were some of the lucky ones that actually had the attention and support of the peaple at large. As we both know, when mail comes around, 1 mean, most folks over the years are just forgotten and abandoned. No fault of their own, or even of their loved B g thecages](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 20.png)
![[Network]. But, you know, the political projects that they were involved in, you’re continuing to support and move forward. Like when you’re \writing someone in prison, you’re thinking like “So they’re a prisoner, and T’m in the Free World." Like, one, you’re not in the “Free World,” and two, they are also free with their own ideas as well and their own thoughts in one way in one level. The thing is, maybe they got caught, but really ‘maybe you could be in the exact same position they are in one day, and ‘maybe that the person who we’re writing to might not have been caught. Just trying to break down the bas ‘a number of different ways. I say to one point Jeremy made, and everyone knows, is that prisoners are some of the most underlooked folks and forgotten about in society. I’s not a solution like “Oh, if every prisoner got books then it would be an OK. society.” No, we need to burn the prison down. But there are so many. folks who are not getting support to get them through some of the most vulnerable and darkest moments potentially in their life. And every single letter that goes through has potential to change someone, and the people. around them, 100, because when I was getting the books, I would be sharing them, of course, everyone was like “Oh, who are you getting all these books.” Eric King: 1 knew for a fact you both did. 1 would have never doubted for a second. Jason Hammond: Of course. 1 would get articles, (00, and there would be a little area where there used to be a fire extinguisher, and 1 would leave articles there, like I’m just leaving it there, so someone walking by would pick it up and read it. ’d see people reading it it’s great. When you support one person in prison, you actually support the people around them too. Eric King: 1 love you both. So, lets talk about when you got out of prison. You both did different spectrums of time, but time s time, and getting out can be hard. It can be great, it can be scary, it can be exciting, so Id like to know what your experiences were like the first six months, year, two vears,like what you struggled with, and what gave you excitement, what gave you joy? Just stuff like that, just a broad goods and bads or sads, nervous and excitements and greats. Jason Hammond: Wow, yeah. Il gofirst. I gt out on April Fools day, and wwhen they called my name I really did think it was a goddamn joke. g theages 33](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 23.png)
![are going to get out, and then they’re going to be part of society, and if we want to talk about changing and abolishing the carceral aspects of society, we have to treat all humans as if they were capable of liberation, and so for that reason every prisoner should be supported and everyone freed. Because if we say some people are deserving of respect, and others aren’t, then okay, maybe you are a warden, lie maybe a lot of peaple walking around the street are guards of an open-air prison society. Because the thing is, everyone in prison, the choices that maybe you could say have led them there, are logical reactions to living in a society that has deprived peaple of the meaningful resources of ways of living. Like, “I got laid off so Thad to do this scam, and now I got caught and I’m in prison.” That could. be anyone. It could be you. Just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t make you better than the people who it did happen to, and it might happen to you next month. Maybe not for everybody, of course, if you look at prisons, the large majority is people of color, so plenty people walk around with privileges and maybe not thinking of themselves like it’s even possible for it to happen to, like white folk I’m talking about. But the prison system is of course expanding, and it will take you in because you fucking got caught up in the same shit too. ‘Eric King: I want to point out to people that the stock prices of Core Civic rose like 80%, and that’s not on accident, its because they know that those joints are about to be packed. Jason Hammond: They re talking about the money involved—T’m not talking about the money, first off—they’re going to prison before you try to deport a million people because of due process and all that. That is an unfathomable monstrosity that must be challenged at every fucking level by every single member of saciety. Then the cost of it,you’re talking about numbers that most people don’t even talk about, trillions of dollars to do this massive... And then, the thing s, once they build these prisons, they’re fucking there, and they’re goin to continue using them. Let’s say. they do some fucking fascist nightmare stuffin the next few years,right, but then the next 10 years that prison’s stll there, and they’re going to have every excuse to fll these beds and keep making money. So what happened in the last few day’s is an extreme acceleration of the Prison Industrial Complex on a level that we haven’t seen I think. Jeremy Hammond: And like ] was saying, the expansion of these cop cities and these prisons and stufflike that—they know what the future actually 5 g thecages](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 36.png)
![protest camp in Seattle during the 2020 George Floyd Uprisings. The [ormation of CHAZ was preceded by a week of tense confrontations and batiles betw the police and protestors near the SPD’s East Precinet, which the police ultimately sbundoned. Protestors were able to hold the space from June to July 32020, when SPD with help from the FBI cleared the camp arresting dozens of people. The space offered free fo0d, support and supplies for houseless people, community gardens, and consensus decision making, Many radical critis of CHAZ noted, however, ailings of the commune, as protestors did not seize the abandoned precinet, ike was done in Minneapolis, and internal security replicated dangerous hierarchies, with 16 year old Black youth left dead in shooting at the commune’s borders, Jilhouse Lawyers Speak — the lrgest prisoner-Led o ganization o for prisoners’ buman rights and digaity in the United States. Notoriows for their work towards aboliton,Jailhouse Lawyers Speak has distinguished history of organizing and participating in major events (2037 Historical Millions for Prisoners Human Rights March, 2015 Nationwide Prison Strike, 2021 Shut ‘em Down Demonstrations] with members across the country for better conditions within US prisons and legal educational opportunities for US prisoners. Their relentless efforts to provide law books, courses and literature aids prisoners to educate themselves and encourages them to help teach and liberate other prisoncrs.Jailhouse Luwyers Speak welcomes new members in both mer’s and women’s prisons in the US. New and ongoing community-based projects led by the inside that connect inside and outside organizers will struggle forward in the spiritof abolition as JLS continues to build resistance. For more information: www jailhouselawyersspeak.com; Bash Back! — a network of queer, insursectionary anarehist cells active in the United States. Formed in Chicago in 2007 o faciltate a convergence of radical trans and gay sctivists rom sround the country, Bash Back! sought o eritique the ideology of the mainstream LGBTQ movement, which the group sa as assimilation into the dominant institutions of a heteronormative society. Bash Back! was noticeably influenced by the anarchist movement and radical queer groups, susch as ACT UP, and took inspiration from the Stonewall and San Francisco’s White Night riots. Running Down the Walls — Since 1999, prisoness and supporters throughout North America have participated in the annusl event known as Running Down the Walls (RDTW), a non-competitive 5K run/jog/walk,roll o rise awareness and funds for political prisoners. Over the years, RDTW has raised thousands of dollars and lots of awareness around the struggle to free political prisoners. 1ts Going Down — a digital community center and media platform featuring news,opinion, podeasts, and reporting on wutonomous movements 4cFoss so- called North America from an anarchist perspective. 1GD announced the project A2 et thecages](rattling-the-cages-until-all-are-free-jason-hammond-jeremy-hammond-rattling-the-cages 42.png)
RATT|LING THEQ
ORAL HISTORIES oF
NORTH AMERICAN @)
POLITICAL PRSONERS g
v
“Until All Are Free!”
Originaly hosted us aliv conversation by Firestorm Books,
recording available on Firstorny' youtube channel
e youtube.com watchv-MhdGaIwVite
Novembers, 024
Publshed by AK Pross, Ratding the Cages: Oral Histries of North American
PoliticalPisoners s roject of abolitionists Josh Davidson and Eric King, The
ook illed with the expericnce and wisdom of over hist current and former
North Amrican poiical prisoners. It provides first-hand detal of prison e and
the poliieal commitments that continue o lesd prisoners into direet confrontation
with state authorites and insitutons.
Transcription, editng, and formatting by ev, Danielle,Josh & Jeremy with help
from Firestorm Boak.
allsbor votunteered
with whatever weapons a hand
an antifascist anarchi
Jason Hammond i from Chicago who participated
in Anti-Racist Action and other movements towards liberation and
abolition. In 2012, Jason was arested along with the Tinley Park 5 after a
militant action against white supremacist conference.He spent 14
months in a southern Hlinois prison, and upon release, doubled down on
prisoner support and other modes of solidarity with movements resisting
the fascist state. Jason i also co-host of the Twin Trouble podcast as well
a5 co-developer of the ot & raly indie game SmashMAGA! long with his
brother Jeremy.
Jeremy Hammond is an activist from Chicago, founder of the computer
Security training website HackThisSite, and former political prisoner
connected to Anonymous. Arrested numerous times for his civil
ibedience, Jeremy has served two prison sentences for
one in connection with a hack of the pro-war Protest Warri
2005 (for which he served almost two years), and again in 2013, for hacking
the private intelligence firm Stratfor and releasing data to WikiLeaks (he
spent over nine years imprisoned on this second case). In 2019, while still
in prison, Jeremy refused to cooperate with a federal grand jury
investigating WikiLeaks and its founder Julian Assange, and was held in
civil contempt of court. He was released from prison in November 2020.
His sentencing statement is included in the book Defiance: Anarchist
Statements Before Judge and Jury (2019).
Eric King s a father, poet, author, and activist. Last December, he was
released from the supermax ADX prison after spending nearly ten years as
a political prisoner for an act of protest over the police murder of Michael
Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. He was held in solitary confinement for
vears and was met with violence by guards throughout his incarceration.
Eric has published three zines: Battle Tested (2015), Antifa in Prison (2019),
and Pacing in My Cell (2019). His sentencing statement is included in the
book Defiance: Anarchist Statements Before Judge and Jury (2019). Eric
‘now works as a paralegal for the Bread and Roses Legal Center.
ationg the cages 3
Libertie Valance: All right y'all, le’s get started. My name is Libertie and
P'm a member of the Firestorm Collective. Tonight we're excited to host
former political prisoners Eric King and Jason and Jeremy Hammond, and
they're going to be discussing state versus federal prisons solidarity inside
and out and readjusting to life once released.
Firestorm is a 16-year-old radical bookstore owned and operated by a
queer feminist collective in southern Appalachia on the land of the
Cherokee people, and we strive to feature events and books that reflect
ourinterests and the needs of marginalized communities in the South,
We're also continuing to book virtual events both because we love being,
able to conneet with folks at a distance and because we know that there’s
alot of barriers to folks in our local community to attending things in
person right now.
‘Eric King: Hi friends! Jeremy and Jason, I'm excited talk to both of you.
T've met Jeremy before, but Jason we never met, so this is really exciting, 1
feel close to both of you even though I only met 50% of you!
Jason Hammond: It's pretty much the same.
‘Eric King: Let's get started. Jeremy, you did two bids.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, plus a couple county weeks here and there. But T
did two federal bids. My first one I was at Greenville for a two-year bid. 1
was like 19 for hacking, Yeah, one count.
‘Eric King: Were you shocked you didn't get sent to the CMU the second
time?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, good question.
‘Eric King: I was. I was shocked you didn't
Jeremy Hammond: Oh my God, yeah. The CMU being one of the two
federal prisons that are the Communications Management Units, where
you're only allowed ke one letter a month, one phone call a month, or
something along those lines. Heavily monitored, heavily serutinized. They
normally go after Muslim prisoners or environmentalists, or even like
complex fraud cases - oh yeah, there’s plenty of those in the feds who are
A et s
still doing stuff from the inside, good for them. No, they did threaten to
send me to the CMU once. One time I was sent to the hole for like a month
or two. One of my comrades was running a Twitter account on my behalf
and during the Ferguson Uprising someone had... Remember the Dallas
shooter who had also shot.
Eric King: 1 have that date tattooed on my hand! July 7, 2016,
Jeremy Hammond: I’ a day to remember! They put the time in, man
Good for them,. They roboted their ass, though. That was kind of sad. But,
‘veah, so T had someone put a Tweet out on my behalf saying it's about
time that those cops started getting a taste of their own medicine. It tit
for tat Support the Dallas shooter. So yeah, 1was in the hole for a month
and all that and they said, “You're going to the CMU” and all that. But they
never did. They never did, honestly. I was in mediums for most of my bid,
with just the general amount of repression that people do exper
Eric King: We'll get to that. We're gonna dive in. I want to start with let
people know how both of you got into activism, individually, collectively,
whatever. What got you into activism, and then what led you to do what
got you put in prison? So i's ike a two-part question. Jason, I don’t think
Ive ever heard you speak, so you're up first
g
Jason Hammond: I got you. Both me and Jeremy were politicized in high
school, after /11, following the military adventurism of the US in Iraq and
Afghanistan. There was a lot of increased Islamophobia and racism, and it
was kind of a turning point, like a “Which side are you on?” type situation
for us. We were observing these things. And there was a Student
iberation Collective that a lot of students organized and did a walk-out in
our high school and many others in Illinois, Chicago, suburban networks
S0, yeah, the anti-war movement is how we came into politics. From there
we basieally were trying to participate as much as possible. Then Oceupy
happened, of course, and during these times we're trying to cut our teeth,
learning from a lot from different places. You know, Jeremy at one point
wwas more of aa summit-hopper type, going to the RNC and getting
arrested protesting there. But we were both getting arrested here and
there in serappies, protests. Some kind of non-violent direct action types,
or sometimes cops just kind of arrest people randomly—even f you don’t
want to, you're always a potential target for repression if you stand up for
people’s rights and against imperialism.
ationg the cages s
We were learning a lot of things that we're still seeing parallels with, like
peaple resisting the genocidal war in Gaza right now with people rising
up, doing encampments at colleges and building occupations. That's an
interesting escalation, too, like people were learning a little bit, maybe. We
were reading things like The Failure of Nonviolence and How Nonviolence
Protects the State by Peter Gelderloos, s0 we were trying to experiment
with various ways during this time and various other ways of resisting.
We both joined Anti Racist Action, which is a more specific series of
actions and strategies and tactics that were 1 guess for many a litle bit
more arrestable and facing repression, Jeremy had already done some
prison time so we were already interested in abolitionist struggles and all
that,
We see a lot of the same parallels with peace policing, like the DNC, for
example, or different dynamics with more liberalizing tendencies within
student protests and encampments and all of that. So there’s these sort of
things that we're trying to get a hold of and learn from, like maybe 10 to 15
‘years ago during the anti-war movements of that era versus now is still
being played ou.
And, of course, we're still partici in these roles even after, in these
protests, as much as our capacity, which we will talk about more with
what we're doing afterwards, of course, later. But that's how we b
got involved anti-war, antiracism, smashing the fash, and trying to
understand and dismantle systemie racism and sexism.
lly
‘Eric King: Jeremy, got anything to add?
e Jason said, the Bush years, I guess now by
s people say seem like more of an innocent time,
to unlearn a lot of things we learned
about America. Just going to anti-war marches and stufflike that and
basically seeing the powers that be, just like speaking truth to power, isn't
enough. So when we started getting involved in the anti-war movement
we started seeing other struggles, how it's all connected, how it is
ultimately an issue of the state and capitalism as a whole, and how issues
like police brutality and imperialism are related. Especially when you
think about how Chicago police do train with Isracl and all that. We just
thought that more was necessary to stop the machinery of war. Holding a
picket sign is cool stuff, but sometimes you have to play with a full deck.
6t thecages
Sometimes you have to take things to the next level. Honestly, being
comfortable and law-abiding in this sick genocidal society s compl
with it. When you realize that the laws are there to keep the people
power in power, so in order to disrupt this balance there’s no means
forward by picketing or writing your congressman, you've got to take
direct action. So that’s when we decided to get involved in direet action
and militant formations.
Eric King: Jason, what happened that got you sent to prison?
Jason Hammond: The specific thing that got me sent to prison was just
one specific tactic of groups like Anti Racist Action, which was the
infiltrating of a group called Hlinois European Heritage Association. Fuck
these assholes, I'm glad to say one of them is dead, at least that I know
about - not directly a result of this specifically! - but who s to say? So
there was an infiltration in this group, they e essentially Nazis. It was
actually during the NATO protests in Chicago in 2012. They had an
alternative,like a European economic summit, forum. It was basically like
ameeting, like a banquet hall at a restaurant. So basically we had
infiltrated their networks with a sock account and building fake rapport
with these fascists. We got the deets on when and where, which is very
interesting and fun to do, if you're into it. That's a fun thing that 1
encourage people to get into. Then we found out where the location was,
and we basically went in and did the deed. T myself got arrested like a year
later after an investigation. Some folks in Tinley Park Five, later six with
‘mysel, they were arrested basically after the event, driving away. They
have all done their time. Many of them, three to six years in Illinois
prisons, and I was writing to them actually (under a pseudonym, of
course) before the feds worked with the Tinley Park Police and
coordinated an anti-terrorism task force that basically provided some
intel that helped identify myself in these videos. There was also DNA, 1
guess. Whatever. But anyway, we beat up some Nazis and eventually
dragged out the trial as long as I could, until—well, they really had me on
the DNA, and so T took the plea, non-cooperating, and then really did the
time. They say I was guilty, and I guess they're right. 1 was guilty of
beating up a Na:
Eric King: Were weapons involved?
Jason Hammond: You know, I mean, the thing s, there’s plenty of
ationg the cages 7
improvisation that can work toward our favor. I mean, a chair leg is like
that; it may not immediately be assumed to be a weapon. I'm not sure.
‘There's been plenty of cases and trials where this particular defense might
have been used, like with the intent, I was just carrying a chair leg, you
know?
Jeremy Hammond: But it was armed assault though, to be clear.
Jason Hammond: Yeah, it was armed violence. They did get me on that.
‘Eric King: Did youlL.. these are impromptu questions that are popping
up. Did you all know that this was going to be a conflict and train for that,
like mixed martial arts, boxing, weapons, or was it, “Let’s just go see what
these punks are up to and give them some work?”
Jason Hammond: Well, mean, ARA does other things, oo, but, yes,
to physically handle Nazis is one well-known aspect of ARA. But in d
community self.defense, there’s plenty of other reasons o train in mixed
Larts, or any kind of martial arts in various ways for self-defense.
Especially for queer and trans communities, people of color communities,
these are very important things in these times, and it was then, t00. S0
these are also community building, this is something that the group could
do tobe wi
me as well as pursue our own campaigns against fascists in
it's a good way to just build bonds and connection using the
tactics. Whether or not you use the self-defense, it's important for
everybody.
the area. S
‘Eric King: We protect us. Okay, Big Jeremy, talk to me friend. Tell me
about your second bid. That's the one that 1 want to focus on. What got
you there?
Jeremy Hammond: When got out the first time I was on paper, obviously,
supervised release, and 1 was wanting to be involved and stuffbut
obviously not really sure the degree of surveillance and what, whether
should jump in on like direct action stufflike that again, and so I dabbled
ina few different things, different activist campaigns and stufflike that.
‘And then Anonymous actually was kicking off right around Occupy time
anyways, and T just saw that it had a lot of potential,that they were like
almost by accident sometimes getting into some really really big targets,
and they wanted to make it political. And they were a little bit rough on
5 et s
the edges, but I really did appreciate their internet sensibilities and their
subversive use of humor as a way to embarrass those in power. But 1 was
ike—let’s work, lets get it right, you know, lets do some damage and stuff
ike that beyond superficial defacing and stufflike that.
So, when Iwas snooping around, the first thing I jumped in on
Anonymous was a hack, Ijust saw a lot of the “papers please” SB1070 stuff
was in the news, and I was looking at Arizona police and Ifound a
vulnerability in the Arizona Police Fraternal Order of Police website and it
had a roster of all numbers and their passwords and stufflike that. I was,
“Yeah, okay so that's llegal.” I'm already in that territory, but I could walk
away, close it, T could cover my tracks, but I was thinking to myself, “How
‘many millions of people would have loved the chance to fuck these people
over, but they don't have the same opportunity that T had at that
particular moment, because I had those type of skills?” Man, people want
to get back, people would love to see get back, and so I felt like I didn't
even have a choice in this matter, that it was just the right time for the
moment. And so that was m first contribution to Anonymous. Then I
definitely for the next nine months or so
irect action, hacking, revealing emails and passwords, and defacing and
deleting their servers, and stufflike that. Basically sabotage. But also
inserting a more explicitly anti-authoritarian politic into Anonymous. You
know, Anonymous s not a political group, per se, with points of unity and
stufflike that, but we were definitely going after the police, we were
definitely going after military, and also computer security contractors
who work with the police. And fascists. We went after alot of Nazis as
well. Same thing, really, right?
Iknew when I decided to do it again that I'm not going to get a slap on the
wrist like a 19-year-old this time around, even though generally the
computer security laws are written for the sons and daughters of congress
people, white people. It's a fraud type of sentencing guidelines structure.
They did max me, though, the second time. But Ijust knew that, yeah, I
was going to be looking at time. But T was like, you know, it's like, “Die on
your feet or live on your knees,” man. Like, shit’s got to change. 1's the
time, like we talked about. I'm not saying I'm going to start some fires, but
it's time. T would like to see some fires started.
Eric King: God bless you. Jason, you did 20 months, or how long did you,
do?
ationg the cages s
Jason Hammond: It ended up being 14 months. It was a three and a half
year sentence.
Eric King: Was that in a prison or did they keep you stuck in the jail?
Jason Hammond: I was actually bonded out. 1 did about maybe two
months in Cook County Jail, and I did about another 14 months in
southern Illinois, Vandali
or “Klandalia” as it’s called, because it
‘Eric King: Because of the obvious reasons.
Jason Hammond: Even though i’ ke, of course, they say Tlinois is
Northern State,it would be like every week a big truck would drive by
h a giant Confederate flag, just driving right in front of the damn thing,
front of you, the whole yard, and the whole prison like they're trying to
make it known.
Jeremy Hammond: Probably one of the guards
Eric King: Then Jeremy, how much time and where did you do your time?
Jeremy Hammond: Alrght, so the second bid I was at MCC Chicago for the
first two weeks then transferred to New York, MCC New York, and also
MDC Brooklyn. I was there for about a year and a half to 20 months or
something like that pre-trial until 1 was sentenced, then I'm skipping
Oklahoma and Grady and all that because [they are transfer prisons where
he did not spend a great deal of time.] Let's see, L was at Manchester for
four years, then I actually made it to alow, Milan in Michigan, for about a
year, Then 1 was sent to Memphis, a federal medium, back again. Got a
bogus assaul case, and then, oh yeah, that's right, the contempt hearing.
thought 1 was going to get out, three months to the door, then they
subpocnacd me, wanted to hold me in contempt, and so that began. The
next year and a half or so 1 was at Alexandria Detention Center outside of
DC, which is where the eastern district of Virginia was holdi
WikiLeaks [hearings].
Eric King: T heard you were the cook there.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah. Well,you know, they starve you to death,
W g thecages
especially in the county jails. I mean, Iost a lot of weight, especially the
last two years my sentence, because, you know, you spend a lot of time in
the yard when you're pushing weight, and you're cating as much as you
can. Then the last two years they dogged my ass, man. 1 was in solitary for
‘most of it and eating county jail food, one hot meal a day type of thing, but
1did manage to weasel my way into the kitchen. So 1 was cooking for
about 500 people for six months. T worked all types of jobs, like maybe you
would have if they didn'’t dog your ass in solitary. [Laughter all around.]
But, yes, 1 worked in the kitchen. Hey, is how you eat, and I was eating
good, off the guards trays sometimes.
Eric King: 1 love hearing that! So, this is a unique opportunity for us,
because we have two people that were in two different types of prison,
but both in prison. It might be old for you guys to talk about the
differences, but I find this wildly interesting. Ilike to talk about the race
dynamics, the rec opportunities, the lockdowns. 1 want to know the
difference between state prison and federal prison, as you guys
experienced it So, whoever wants to go first, just go first, but I want to
hear all of i
Jeremy Hammond: Il go first dynamics. 1 mean, you've
been in the fed, so you already know that it's an extremely racially
segregated, extremely cliqued-up type of environment
Eric King: So, in Midwest prisons and in the prisons you were at,
‘Manchester, and maybe not Milan, but Greenville, those were still race.
based?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, very much so. Who you could cell with and stuff
ke that, but, of course, that's not actually true. You could be a race
traitor. You know what T mean. You dor't have to go with the flow. And,
honestly, its the type of thing where the fight doesn't end after you're
arrested, or after you're in jail. The courts, that's the place you fight, and
then when you're in the yard, that's another fight. Dismantling systemic
racism. The Midwest is ke that, but 1 was fortunate that 1 was able to
‘meet up with a bunch of folks from Chicago, and at some places it was the
Midwest car and some places it was just like the Chicago car. I'm not a
gang member, but they're cool, they took me in so to speak. With the
\white boys, obviously, they're not into that at all the way I was I
wwho you sit with, who you eat with, who you cell with.
ationg the cages "
‘Eric King: Did you eat with Black folks?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah.
‘Eric King: Wow! Good for you, bro.
Jeremy Hammond: Well, 1 mean, again, I was kind of lucky honestly,
because I had a big high-profile case, and 'm not a rat or a sex offender, so
that already puts me below the hierarchy. Maybe it would have been
different in maximurm sccurity prisons, like the penitentiaries are much
more vicious I'm told, and possibly even West Coast ones are much more
ious. But I never had to fight for that in the same way that you had to,
with my fists, so to speak. But I've got a big mouth, but mainly its because
you know, that I was standing up for something, and
honestly the white boys couldn’t say shit, because I showed them my
people do recogni
paperwork, t00. Once ina while, Lactually did sit with them, and they're.
mad, right, because like I fuck with everybody, I was sitting with
everybody, but they couldn’t say shit because I'm legit. But 1did have a
few problems. Actually, many problems involving that when you stand up
against it and go against the grain.
‘Eric King: I'm 5o impressed you did that. That's awesome.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, again, 1 was lucky. P'm from Chicago and people
knew my stulf
‘Eric King: How many GDs were on those yards?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, there’s alot. T mean, Manchester was a lot of
people from Chicago, which was like 495 miles away, right, they put
everybody from Chicago there, ight, because it’s just under the 500 miles.
Milln s too. Memphis s also very St. Louis and Chicago, who sometimes
ride together, if that makes any sense, the non-gang affiliated will ride.
together as a Midwest car sometimes. Ultimately, it's about the old
conviet code, too—your word and your principles and so—really, its like
you ain’t got shit except your principles, so you have to walk in a way that
matches, and that means everything to you, much more than a fucking
tray, you know?
‘Eric King: 1 love this guy! Jason, tell me about your custody level and then,
B g thecages
we're starting with racial relations, so what the racial dynamics or politics
were like in the state joint you were at?
Jason Hammond: Alrght, so Vandalia is a minimunn in southern Ulinois.
‘They had a work camp where I ended up for a little bit of the tis
actually more than halfthe time, because one of my charges. Your frst bid
you're allowed to do some of the classes,like the building trades and
horticulture, which were the few and some of the better opportunities
that you could possibly even get there. It takes about six months to get
into these things anyway. But it was a minimurm, there was a fence all the
way around. People said that there was a time where there wasn't one,
but
Eric King: s that the equivalent of a camp, basically, in the feds?
Jason Hammond: T've read many camps don't have fences, but this, yeah.
‘There was a Work Camp that was slightly better privileged, ke there
people were dormed in rooms of 20in a 100 pod, as opposed to
everywhere else where the dorms are like 100 in a dorm. But, yeah, its
probably similar to a camp, 1 might imagine. I can't say. I've never been to
4 camp, but it was still a minimum,. And then just being llinois, basically
down state or anywhere south of Highway 80 is a very rural, huge
‘majority white kind of population generally, as opposed to Chicagoland
area, which i a lot more diverse. But you look at the prisons are largely
‘majority, of course, people of color, and so this was a huge dynamic. Even
though there were people from all over Ilinois in the prison I was at—
locals from like Centralia, or wherever, but the large majority of people
are from Cook County, or like the Chicagoland arca, so that dynamic
played out.
Also, being a minimum, people weren't as hardeore about eating in racial
cliques or gang cliques, even though there was definitely gang cliques
where people were organizing themselves. And, of course, it’s super racist
—there’s an expectation you're going to hang with your own, of course,
and yowve got to buck that every chance you get. 1 hung out with people T
knew from Chicago, and people that I knew were from Chicago talking
about familiar places and all of that. 1 got checked a fewer times by some
folks, but I'm just like, “I don't really see why you're being so fucking
racist about this shit.” OF course, with my charge 'm like, “Oh my God, am
1going to run into a bunch of fucking Nazis who are going to ask about my
g theages 1
goddamn charge?” But still, even though there were definitely a few folks
who had fucking swazis on their goddamn bods, they actually kept their
mouths pretty quiet, generally, because 1 don't think that they really had
that much pull in Vandalia maybe. Or it might also just be because it's a
‘minimum place, so that means everyone there was five years or less. I
think a lot of people there are just trying to get out as quick as possible
without trying to rile some more stuff,they don't really feel like.
‘Eric King: I think they saw those big ass knuckles you have. Look at those
things! No wonder they kept their mouth shut?
Jason Hammond: Yeah, I'm like, “what about it, racists?”
‘Eric King: So, Jason, what was the food situation like?
Jason Hammond: Well, they definitely had provided meals three times a
day, hot meals—actually 1 wouldn't say breakfast was really provided, it
was sometimes just bread and peanut butter jelly and an egg, a boiled egg.
So.at least two, maybe three hots a day, but it was garbage, right, it wasn't
—wellt was definitely a step up from Cook County Jail, which is—County
Jail's not unique, but t's some of the worst food that you can force
someone to cat.
‘Eric King: Honestly, between the two of you, you dudes were at like the
three worst pre-trial facilities on Earth. Those things are rough, the MDCs
and then Cook!
Jason Hammond: Terrible. Cook County is like the largest, one of the
largest maybe by land, but i’s also notorious for being particularly bad,
think between Rikers and.
‘Eric King: Particularly bad, yes that is what it's known for.
Jeremy Hammond: I've been in that motherfucker like eight times, man,
everything from—my God man, and it's actually better than it used to be
It used to be like twice as crowded and guards are just so
people are stilldying there all the time, and they're coveri
medical care. No books cither, there’s no ibrary, there’s no law library. Its
one of the worst ones, and you know we do lot of prisoner support, and
we're looking at some of these inmate numbers like, “Damn, this
W g hecages
‘motherfucker's been there for 10 years.” Damn bag of bones type shit,
‘man. They need to shut that thing down. And during the COVID
‘pandemic, too, that was the number one COVID spot in the country
actually.
Jason Hammond: There was a super spreader, like they traced maybe one
quarter ofallcases in llinois came from Cook County, at least that's what
the data said at the time, Cook County Jail was definitely a super spreader.
Eric King: 1 was being held for my second charge in the Englewood SHU,
\when COVID hit. When it happened, they took away soap, and said they
couldn't afford it anymore. So we didn't have soap, and then they said the
commissary out of medicine, so we couldn’t buy medicine and couldn’t
buy soap! You fucking pukes!
Jeremy, you were at mediums and lows. Those are sometimes known for
better recreation and better food. Did you experience that? What was your
rec situation like, did you have sports, did you have hobbies?
Jeremy Hammond: They're not often locked down as much, obviously, as
some of the higher levels, or the supermax. But yeah, they're considered
pens. The lows and mediums are considered open, where every hour
they do a move and you have minutes to either go somewhere or back
from somewhere, like rec. They often do rec at leastlike three times,
‘morning, afternoon, and evening sometimes, unless there is astaff
shortage or lightning or whatever. So you can walk in circles around the
track
During the summer they sometimes have sports and stufflike that, so 1
always tried to play softball every year that I could. I played a total of
eight years of prison softball,so that’s kind of cool. Once in a while I've
been at one or two places that also have a music program, so 1 was able to
fuck around. I actually learned guitar in prison my first bid, because my
brother sent me guitar tabs and music theory, stuff like that. 1 was able to
teach myself guitar by checking out a guitar with your ID, and you use it
for a couple hours. That was awesome,
Eric King: 1 don't remember which one, but in like 2014 or 2015 one of you
was in the ABC [Anarchist Black Cross] newsletter, and you were listing
the bands that they had on the MP3 thing so other people would know.
g theages S
Which one was that, do you remember, either of you?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, I think I did an article for Maximum RockNRoll,
maybe it was printed, and I was talking about the MP3 programs, and
what songs I liked.
‘Eric King: That was helpful for me. Tlove that! I was just checking off the
bands.
Jeremy Hammond: Oh yeah?! Oh, that's so cool. ' so glad someone
appreciated them. Yeah, T put a bunch of punk bands, I think, like
Operation Ivy. Fuck, what clse did I have on there?
‘Eric King: It was like just 15 punk bands.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, and honestly from the Walmart music section,
obviously they don't have any like DIY punk bands or anything like that,
and it all censored, and all that stuff, and you got to pay a buck fifty and.
all that shit. But man, you get your money’s worth out that buck
right, listening to that shit over and over and over again. 'm never
listening to any of those songs ever again, never!
‘Eric King: 1 didn't have my MP3 the last several years obviously, but even
when
ally got it back, 1 would not listen to a single one of those songs.
No, you're dead to me.
Jeremy Hammond: You could take it home and unlock it for $15 dollars,
but man, 'm fucking leaving that thing over there, so someone can turn it
into a battery for the radio or something.
‘Eric King: Turn it into something. Jason,
that?
you have access to mus
Jason Hammond: When I was in, it was the period between when they had
tapes and radios,like Walkman's. Basicall they had stopped doing that
for a while, so they weren't even selling any radios or tapes because they
were eventually going to do MPS3 players. They started installing kiosks,
which weren't finished by the time I was in there. So any radio you could
even get was from someone who'd already been there for a while, and it
was shared and protected by the folks and whoever they wanted to share
o g thecages
it with. But 1did share with someone, and it was like mostly "90s music. 1
tening to Green Day and Offspring. But the thing had been
e 10 years, so it would be playing slower. 'd be trying to spi
to get it to go faster to just sound like the song. And the radio, of course,
middle nowhere. 1 don't want to say the
‘middle nowhere, but they don't have an abundance of radio stations in the
would be
there for
Eric King: You couldn't get Chicago radio?
Jason Hammond: No, no. 1t would just be ke Clear Channel, mainstream
Pop,or it would be country. And the mainstream pop stuffis like, I would
be listening to other people listening to it at night, and 1 know all the
‘melodis but none of the words. Id hear the same song every goddamn
night
Eric King: Is that what got you involved in pop music to where you formed.
your boy band?
Jason Hammond: You know, I can hum the melody, but I don’t know now
any of the words!
Eric King: So, I want to talk about shit that goes on inside. You both
touched on the racial element, and 1 want people to understand that every
prison s different that way, and every one might not be as severe, but
they all exist on this separation, where divide and conquer, one way or
another, whether it's rats, tattle tails, racial shit, or staff repression. So, 1
don't know if either of you faced anything like that pre-trial, trial, or
during your bid, but how was interactions with staff, either SIS or
whatever the intelligence agency is there, with mail, with calls, just in
‘general? What, if any, experiences did you have with staff?
Jeremy Hammond: I mean they were on my line quite a bit, especially the
frst couple years,
Eric King: By the way,
guards.
Manchester is known for having really s
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, i’s Kentucky, man, the coal prison belt,
Appalachia. Actually, there’s a disproportionate amount of prisons over
oty theges 7
there. Is a very insular community, mostly former military, who have no.
connection to the the peaple that are locked up, who are usually from
urban areas. So, yeah, no, they were there on my line. 1 didn’t have email
or computer, and 1 had to add the phone manually for the first like year
and a half. Then when I got to Manchester, 1 was on the email thing to
where it would only send all my messages once a week and d receive all
my messages once a week when the SIS clicks the button. And they were
just on me for mail generally, like they were reading my stuff, and they
gave me a couple shots here and there for various mail or phone
infractions. Sometimes they would just take my shit for six months. I
mean, I've been in the hole like, I don’t know, a dozen times. T wrote a
couple articles about it. T can’t even remember ll the individual
circumstances. Sometimes it's stuff that like T knew I was doing it, I knew
Icould get caught, 1made a lot of wine, right, I went to the hole for that.
But other times it was stuff that was bullshit, you know what I mean,
frankly.
‘Eric King: Like that shit that happened at Milan?
Jeremy Hammond: Oh yeah, the assault, the staffassault Yeah, so Milan
was one of the six federal prisons that had that Second Chance pilot
program for education, so 1 was actually about to get my degree. Yeah,
waslike six months from getting an Associates and all that, but some
dumbass cop who was notoriously one of the worst cops on the yard, right
—and there always are some, and you usually know who they are—Ltry to
duck them and not even have any type of interaction with them. But he
was on the other side of a door, and they called a move, and the one cop on
the inside of the unit wasn't fucking opening the key, he was just over
somewhere else. And so this one cop opened it from the other side, and I
didnt even know, there’s no window or anything, I push the door and it
pushesinto him, just brushed his shoulder. Then he kind of threw me up
against the wall trying to get me to fight him and stufflike that, but [
wasn't going for it. Then he did lock me up, and 1did I think a month and a
halfin the hole, and was transferred back to the medium. I could have had
a degree, right, but a bogus assault. But then again, honestly though, that's
just everyday stuff. Anyone who does any type of large amount of time is
going to have these type of incidental interactions. You're going to do hole
time, evenf you stay straight the whole time with your head down,
you're sill going to end up going to the hole. Again, 1 got them more than
they got me, most of the time.
g hecages
Eric King: You talked about the email situation and not everyone listening
willalways understand what that means. So, when you're in the feds to
get email you log into your TRULINC, it's a TRULINC system, and you pay
‘money. And then SIS, if you are not on any restrictions, your mail just
flows in, your email you can read it basically the same time. Jeremy, will
‘you explain what you were talking about when you said the once a week
thing?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah. And they told me when I got there that they.
\were going to do this. S is like the intelligence, the detectives of the
prison. It stands for intelligence, but I've never attributed that to any
cops, right?
Eric King: The dumbest piece of pieces of shit I've ever met.
Jeremy Hammond: You know, you can get them just by a false cover most
of the time, because they can' even read! So, anyways, my emails, they
turn my emails on, but when I sent an emal, it wouldn't actually
arrive until an SIS actually sat down and looked at the queue and clicked
the button each time. They sereen them before they're received or sent
because they think that you're going to incite or plot crimes oF whatever,
you know what I mean.
And P just going to take this moment, something I want to bring up
later, but I definitely think that the lack of internet access, period, to
people behind bars, is one of the biggest atrocities of this system. Granted,
there’s plenty, obviously, to be said, but the fact that we're locking people
up for years and years and years without access to the same set of
information, or the ability to look stuff up on their own—going into the
world without apartments or jobs, can’t even use that stuff without a
smartphone, never having used one. I never had a smartphone until 1 was
released from prison. And I'm good at computers, I caught up. But just
knowing that this is one other way that they keep people down, and so my
big thing is honestly: get the internet to the peaple behind bars. Get them
fucking phones, unrestricted, unmonitored. That's why we're doing stuff
like sending It's Going Down newsletters and all the books. We'll talk.
about it later. But, yeah, that was my email situation, which is to say i
not email actually, is not actually internet and stufflike that, i’s like a
glorified texting service that charges you out the ass. It's some weird
dystopian monitoring future, which is the future they want for all of us,
g theages 19
which is something I would like to talk about later, because we're
definitely trying to stop this tech fascist dystopia.
‘Eric King: 1 once sent an email to my wife. This was when 1 did a month
anda halfat a low when I first started, and I sent an email, and I said like
“Ilove you this many times." And it was like I just typed random numbers,
andhad to go in and talk to SIS, and they said they're going to try to
prosecute me. They said it was like passing messages. These fucking
lowlife seum,
Jason, did you face anything like that? You were at a minimum, but it’s
still prison. Was there anything like that for your calls or mail or
anything?
Jason Hammond: I did get a ot of mail, which was key. And we know and
this needs to be said. We need to continue on. That was really what kind of
flagged me in their mind. Like, okay, why i this person getting mail? So
they looked me up and they said, “Yeah, we know who you are. You're not
doing anything.” 1 did do a few writings that were published here and
there, but 1 didn't get as much serutiny as I could have, They wanted to let
me kno that they were aware, and they also didn't want a scene because
Ivas gettinga lot of books and letters. I would say tht they were curious
about me, but I didn't have any reason to particularly think that they
needed to put me anywhere particular, or had any evidence that they
were doing any monitoring of the letters.
‘Eric King: 1 do want to talk about support. There’s good and bad about
prison support, for real. None of us are perfect, none of them are perfect,
but it is a lfeline. 1 also know that different parts of our movement
supportin different ways. Like the Earth Liberation Front or Animal
Liberation Front people will get a thousand letters a day. I talked to Jake
[Conroy] whao said he was getting 100 letters a week. Anti-fascists will get
that crowd. You both were very different in your charges, so I'd like to.
know about the individual support you received. Anything that you wish
they had known that they weren't able to do or didn't do?
Jeremy Hammond: I mean, honestly we were some of the lucky ones that
actually had the attention and support of the peaple at large. As we both
know, when mail comes around, 1 mean, most folks over the years are just
forgotten and abandoned. No fault of their own, or even of their loved
B g thecages
ones and stufflike that, but it's a damn shame that people are just
everyday folks. So we do a lot of prisoner support and solidarity now. We.
definitely support political prisoners and stufflike that. We have
formations for those type of things, but we definitely also are “free them
all”like we don’t put political prisoners or anybody else on any type of
pedestal. We support everybody.
‘That being said, we had a tremendous amount of support. 1 did especially.
Ihad the type of case that was actually kind of acceptable to a lot of more
‘mainstream liberals, because government transparency, right, like it’s an
casy thing for people.
Eric King: 1 saw you in Wired.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, T mean, honestly, I got support from some
people who sometimes say that, “Oh, he's not a criminal ” Like I'm just
“Hmm, well..” ' also involved in militant direct action and support alot
of other things that maybe you would—so 1 did try to use that to advocate
for abolition and support al folks.
The next question, support comes in many forms. I got mail every day and
got books every day. It was so amazing to g0 to court and see our friends
and family in court. Like Jason said, they notice that the person i
supported and loved and stuff like that. I think that maybe puts them on
guard, that they think they are less likely to be able to do somethings to
some people if they think that there’s eyes on the situation. So that’s why.
phone zaps and stufflike that are also important. Stuff like that works!
Eric King: Yeah, damn, they work! I had an argument with an elder who,
was trying to discourage people from doing phone call-ins, like, fuck,
these things saved my life. What are we talking about? This isn't about me;
Iapologize. You got me hot.
Jeremy Hammond: No. o - you're saying an example of how that shit
actually made a material difference in your lfe, and honestly for most
folks that's what they're looking for s a ttl bit f attention from the
ic o the situation. If oy people on the outside knew what was
happening! So every time someone on the inside s throwing that beacon
up—they send a message or a phone zap, can you please tell peaple about
ituation?—they're reaching out for support over the wire, and we got
oty theages 2
toanswer the calll IUs actually extremely satisfying giving i to them raw
on the phone and yelling, talking circles around these foolios. You know,
when you first call them, they might think that they're just talking to a
friend or family who actually doesn’t know anything and they think they
could talk any kind of way. You know how guards talks to a prisoner,
right, like “Well that's just the way it is.” But we'll be like, “Well, actually,
Program Statement.” “Well, actually, we are an authorized publisher.”
“Actually, you are violating Mandela Act, this Ilinois Law.” “Let me talk to
or.” “Also, what's your name?" You know what I mean. And 1
your supery
record every call, too.
‘Eric King: Of course you do!
Jeremy Hammond: Hell yeah 1 do. We gotta lt these people know that
they got eyes on them, and we let the people inside know that we got their
back.
‘Eric King: Jason, how was your support?
Jason Hammond: So, you know, the book are key. kind of don't read as
much as 1did back then anymore, but books are a lifeline. You could
always keep reading, I guess. But, anyways, the letters of support, it was
really good to hear from people. Sometimes it's hard or difficult for people
tobe like “Okay you got the pen and paper, I'm going to write someone
who P've never talked to who doesn't know who I am. I never met this
person, but I support the cause which is maybe why 'm writing them.” A
pen pal situation. Because T've written prisoners, 0o, of course, you're
talking about your day, and you're like “Oh, does this person really want
to hear about my cool bike ride” or something? I don't know, but smiled
when I heard about people telling me about the ool things that that they
were doing in their lives, like this tree or something, because like I missed
atree when Lwas in there right? It was good to hear that, and Iknow it
might seem like you don’t want to like feel like you're bragging to
someone who can't enjoy the same sort of simple pleasures like that, but it
s nice to hear that people are actually doing things. More importantly, or I
say also important, i people were writing and telling about—you know,
it different names of course, but just like—the cool things that they
had heard about or something that people were doing to continue on the
struggle. I think that s another great way to support the movement for
political prisoners s to continue the torch—you know,lierally The Torch
B g thecages
[Network]. But, you know, the political projects that they were involved
in, you're continuing to support and move forward. Like when you're
\writing someone in prison, you're thinking like “So they’re a prisoner, and
T'm in the Free World." Like, one, you're not in the “Free World,” and two,
they are also free with their own ideas as well and their own thoughts in
one way in one level. The thing is, maybe they got caught, but really
‘maybe you could be in the exact same position they are in one day, and
‘maybe that the person who we're writing to might not have been caught.
Just trying to break down the bas ‘a number of different ways. I
say to one point Jeremy made, and everyone knows, is that prisoners are
some of the most underlooked folks and forgotten about in society. I's
not a solution like “Oh, if every prisoner got books then it would be an OK.
society.” No, we need to burn the prison down. But there are so many.
folks who are not getting support to get them through some of the most
vulnerable and darkest moments potentially in their life. And every single
letter that goes through has potential to change someone, and the people.
around them, 100, because when I was getting the books, I would be
sharing them, of course, everyone was like “Oh, who are you getting all
these books.”
Eric King: 1 knew for a fact you both did. 1 would have never doubted for a
second.
Jason Hammond: Of course. 1 would get articles, (00, and there would be a
little area where there used to be a fire extinguisher, and 1 would leave
articles there, like I'm just leaving it there, so someone walking by would
pick it up and read it. 'd see people reading it it's great. When you
support one person in prison, you actually support the people around
them too.
Eric King: 1 love you both. So, lets talk about when you got out of prison.
You both did different spectrums of time, but time s time, and getting out
can be hard. It can be great, it can be scary, it can be exciting, so Id like to
know what your experiences were like the first six months, year, two
vears,like what you struggled with, and what gave you excitement, what
gave you joy? Just stuff like that, just a broad goods and bads or sads,
nervous and excitements and greats.
Jason Hammond: Wow, yeah. Il gofirst. I gt out on April Fools day, and
wwhen they called my name I really did think it was a goddamn joke.
g theages 33
Because it was like Friday, I was actually set to be released in the
weekend, sometimes they doit laer, right, like after the weekend. But
they let me out on Friday, April 1, o that was cool. But the readjustment
thing, 1didn’t do a ton of time like you guys did. A lot of my friends were
still around in the same neighborhoods and areas—1 did 14 months. But
that's stil enough time that people move on from their things. I's
definitely a litle bt of a culture shock. One of the things that did happen
was I became more attuned to the electronic monitoring thing, because
post-release you might get, you know, the fucking ankle shackle. That has,
of course, since expanded as a carceral tactic “e-incarceration.” So 1 was
trying to apply for jobs when I got out, but this shit is so poorly run 1
never got the message back many times, so I missed interviews. Also,
missed my grandparents funeral just because they didn’t answer their
phone enough to get sent an approval to go on an out of state visit. You
see little things, like once you're out, you think you're out, but actually,
you're not, and I don't mean just beyond the three months. T applied to
Various jobs and just get rejected on no basis—of course, a felony, right?
And that’s really an issue, I guess most people think “Well you're out of
prison, you're akay, you're free now.” It's like, I don't know. Besides the,
systemic levels, there’s so much psychological levels. We develop a lot of
tools to help exist in this society after release. We have a lot of patience,
we developed that in prison, and maybe perspective. These things do
carry, they do carry on, and you see people who don't, and you're like,
“Oh, that's unfortunate, maybe you don’t have the patience enough to
give someone a chance to learn maybe from their ways” or whatever, you
know, or just learn to deal with stuffin a certain way. Once you leave
prison, I guess you carry it with you for the rest of your life.
Jeremy Hammond: S0, as a matter of fact, next week is my four year
anniversary being out. 1 was released in November, mid Novernber, that's
four years I've been out. was at the halfway for two or three months,
then in home confinement for a couple weeks on the band, and then I was
on paper for a year or so until 1 was lucky to have an attorney beat my
supervised release conditions completely, after a year you could file for
that.But, yeah, it was tough, but then again T would say T was lucky and
fortunate to have a community and a family who did take care of most of
my physical needs, that 1 didn't have to actually struggle like most people
do,so there’s that.
Twas ona bunch of weird ass monitoring shit, that was the most notable
B g thecages
thing about my release. My computer and my phone had to have a device
onit that recorded all my traffic and all my messages and all the websites 1
visit, and she'd look at my sereen and stufflike that. And I had to pay for
it, 00, 60 bucks a month to some private ass company for basically a
Eric King: Those filthy bastards made you pay for it?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, and she would comment to me sometimes
randomly about some of the messages 'm sending and stuff like that. She
was actually on it. Twice she like threatened to violate me over stuff 1 was
doing on the computer,like this petty bullshi, frivolous stuff. She tried to
say that—one of my conditions, T had a bunch of weird conditions, ike you
can't affiliate with a civil disobedience group, or you can'taffliate with
electronic civildisobedience, you can't use encryption, you can't use a
proxy server, stufflike this that my probation officer frankly just didn't
even understand those things. She had a suite of tools that gave her
keyword notifications that flagged stuff like that, and so she tried to
violate me twice because of our video game that we made, the Smash
MAGA video game which is an anti-fascist brawler, you could beat up a
bunch of Tramp supporters and allthat shi, you know, cool stuff right
S0 she actually tried to say “We need to go to the judge to sce if she would
consider this game anti-fascist, and see if anti-fascist s civil disobedience,
andbe a violation,” and I'm like “Yeah right, go do that, by the way, go do
thatt”
Jason Hammond: This was 2021 so antifa was
enforcement as terrorist.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah I was in the halfway house when T watched
January 6. S0 then they tried to violate me again, because they saw that we
posted our game on website “GamingForLinux.com,” which is simply a
place where people could see games that are written for Linux. So she
ried “Oh Linux, typed s Linux a proxy server, we gotta violate you You
can't use it” Eventually, once she asked the IT person in the office, maybe
they laughed that shit out of there. But other than that can't complain,
honestly, s far as the restrictions go. Chicago has a lot of people on
probation, and they got alot of other shit they worry about. I was sil
going to demos. And so that was, frankly,like one of the small victories
that has just meant everything just to be out there in the street, to be part
g teages 3
of something again, you know what I mean, even if 'm not throwing
bricks at every fucking thing, but just to be part of the continuum of the
‘movement and stufflike that, to see people. It was difficult for me, man. T
stil actually ery pretty spontaneously sometimes. I still have some weird
habits from prison. But other than that I can’t complain, I got a lot going
for me.
‘Eric King: I think it's important that people that listen understand that we
carry that trauma. Jeremy, you saw me talk several months ago, and 1 was
just weeping.
Jeremy Hammond: Me too, man. T was erying my eyes off hearing you
Eric King: Right! 1 know you understand. Jason, you might also, but like
we carry that shit with us,it doesn’t just stop at the door, and those habits
that we develop, those dor’tjust stop. I still get mad at my kids and want
to seream and ery ifthey leave dirty dishes out. You can't do that.
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, cutting people in line and stuff like that, you'd
be tripping over shit.
‘Eric King: Yes! Jeremy, I'm giving you a big hug, Jason, I'm giving you a big
hug. Both of you. So, lets talk about what happened next. You're both frec.
What direction does your activism go? What do you start doing, and what
problems do you face, if there are any? Just tell me about what your free
life activism has started to look like and then what it developed into.
Jeremy Hammond: We're going to leave some sp
we're very much involved in shit out here.
s out! But, yeah,
‘Eric King: Are you guys just sharing that green drink, or are there multiple
green drinks?,
Jason Hammond: This one’s empty!
Jeremy Hammond: Other stuff, you know the range of resistance isn't just
protest marches, although we are pretty prolifically at them things, but
we're also involved i range of stufflike everything from writing, to
playingin a band, to music, o printing, Printing zins is one of our
mainstays, actually.
3 g thecages
Eric King: Actually, talk about why you do that. Why do you print zines?
What's the value in that?
Jeremy Hammond: Many reasons. We do a lot of prisoner support, books
10 prisoners, zines and stuff like that, and it’s because honestly the wallis
a physical wall and a fence and stuTlike that, but i’ notjust for people,
it's also for ideas, ight? Folks inside often have no access to actual
knowledge and information and updates about what people, especially
‘movements, are doing out there, other than the TV and the newspaper or
something. So we send lots of books and lots of zines and internet
printouts to folks inside, but it's also the inverse too: not only are people
on the inside obviously ablivious of what's happening in the world, but
people on the outside are frankly oblivious about what the realities of
\what's happening behind bars. S0 a lot of our work is also publishing
\writings and art and artwork for incarcerated authors. We make zines
written by prisoners, that type of stuff
Eric King: That's awesome. God bless
Jeremy Hammond: Well, i's like Coyote said, zines are our real weapons,
andit's time to get lit. You know, the pen is often mighter than the sword
in some cases, especially if you think of how isolated each one of these
jails and prisons are, like how are they going to hear about this whole
Jailhouse Lawyers Speak strike coming up in December? You might be ina
type of lockdown prison, but the dude in the unit next over, they might be
going in on some hunger strike, unified convict type stuff and you don't
even know about it unless you hear abou it from one of the guards, the
trustees, or something like that. So, when you put that flag up, we put that
shitin the newsletter, we make sure 300 other people get it the next
‘month. We're basically trying to build up a web, a network of resistance
through their walls, man. And so zines are often the type of publication
that could get under the radar, ike where they got book bans and stuff
like that, wel,this s from a security point of view often no different than
aletter. Now, granted, the book bans and the censorship has just gone off
the chain this past couple years, and that's one of the struggles that we're
fighting against, to pierce that wall right? But, nevertheless, zines are one
of our best weapons.
Eric King: Jeremy, I used to get zines from you in ADX. They made it
through the mail, and then I'd pass that shit on, you'd slide under the door
oty theages 27
to the orderly who would pass it to the next cell, and we'd have
conversations about that shit, because you guys cared enough to send it. It
didn’t just go to me, it went to... Well, there was only five other peaple, but
it went to five other people! Pass that info on! How many complaints have
you two gotten for your handwriting?
Jason Hammond: I got one from you!
Eric King: Yeah, T can't be the only onel
Jason Hammond: We all want to change society, but T don’t hink that this
is ever going to change, our handwriting. And even our spelling, when
we're typing, it Iooks the same. 1 don't know ho it works.
‘Eric King: Jason, tell me about the video game.
Jason Hammond: Okay, so it was actually a thing both me and Jeremy
thought would be a good kind of project for us both to start off on. We're
actually both—well,they didn't call it Retro Gaming back then, it was just
gaming, like Nintendo, we were born in the year of Our Lord Nintendo. We
grew up on this stuff, and Tve played a little bit as adult, if you can call me
that, When Jeremy got out, he saw Jan 6 in the halfway house, then we
both lived together, and we're like, “Oh, this just looks like a fucking video
game.” It was a good project that we engaged together that we could
amplify the message of anti-fascism and talk about these dynamics and
great art that would be of interest to folks, even if it was just a cathartic
game that you play on your mobile when you're anywhere. It was also
kind ofa testing thing to see where Jeremy—he had his PO who was
watching him—this s a safer type way to contribute to the movement,
like its a form of art.1's a free game of course. 1€’ on Steam and many
other platforms, you can play at SmashMAGA.com. You play as antifa, and
it's like the Mario Black Bloc. Is multiplayer, retro, the twin-stick shooter
arcade style. And we've been continually doing levels over the last few
years as more dynamics oceurred. The early levels were like a Vaccination
Site, there was like a CHAZ-type level to try to defend the space against
cops and and bootlickers who were try to cause trouble to the
autonomous space. Now we have levels like Campus Encampments, we
have a Crash The Conventions level, we have a Mad MAGA level where.
you blow up pipelines. In. video game, o course,
Smash MAGA, you know. Real educational stuff! Because gaming kind of
Minecrait”—1 mean
B g thecages
has been riddled with encoded misogyny and sexism—it’s like a
battleground, really, where I think maybe there’s not enough anarchist or
leftist voices. 1's a another kind of area which we could put these sort of
‘messages in it. And it’s fun! We put memes like the Twisted Tea, which is
the official drink of anti-racists a few years ago—remember that time
Twisted Tea, someone smacked a racist in the face?
Jeremy Hammond: Have you ever seen that meme, Lric?
Eric King: No.
Jason Hammond: Oh yeah you gotta see that meme, the Twisted Tea
‘meme. Someone dropped the N-bomb and being all racist in the store, and
the dude was trying to buy a Twisted Tea, so he smacked the dude with
the Tisted Tea, and it became an instant hit for a while. Then there's
“Soup Tor Your Family,” of course, there’s the milkshake for Andy Ngo.
Jeremy Hammond: You fight the Q-Anon Shaman in the capital
Eric King: He was at Englewood when I was in the SHU. It was him and
two others, including this abortion shooter. And because the Q-Anon punk.
got that special permission from the judge, they had to go to Sprouts and
buy him special food, that motherfucker.
Jeremy Hammond: Man.
Eric King: Yeah, I was like, “You fucking pieces of shit.” He's a little fella
too, he's like §'5”. He did a psych evaluation, that’s why he was there, and
they wrote him a thing saying he shouldw't be in prison, it would be too.
hard. T've never seen anyone get that write-up before, like from Psych.
You pieces of shit! Sorry for diverting,
Jason Hammond: We love to dunk on the Q-Anon Shaman in particular,
but all the Jan-Sixers, many of them made to our game. The Confederate
Flag guy is up in there. You battle Rudy Giuliani, he's obvious. But, yeah,
it's really ridiculous with the Jan-Sixers kind of thing, with the “Oh, we're
political prisoners. We're hostages of the state.” It was interesting when
Marjorie Taylor Green said, “You need to defund the FBL It's like, they
did an insurrection. Why the fuck!? Everyone saying now—when's the lib
insurrection, right? I think Liberals are more likely to be the ones getting
g theages 20
in the way of an actual Insurrection, but.
‘Eric King: Without a doubt. Without a doubt. I want to jump back to
something, Jason, that you said. And you both can touch on it, but I found.
it interesting. You said that these spaces—it can be video games or
electronic—aren't really a stronghold for far leftist, for anarchist, anti-
fascist, whatever. Why do you think that is, and what do we do to counter
it more? Because you two are the only two I've ever met, obviously you'd
know more, but T don’t know any besides the brothers Hammond. So why
do you think that is, and what can we do to enhance that?
Jason Hammond: Like other avenues where leftist ideas and anarchist
ideas aren't present?
Jeremy Hammond: I gotta push back on that just a tcl bit,because I
think that there actually is a very exciting current among—1 mean, you
use Discord man? Come on, man, honestly a ot of young hackers and
coders.
‘Eric King: 1 don't know what that s.
Jeremy Hammond: See? But dude,it's queer as fuck, it's commie as fuck,
it's kind of our thing, honestly. I don't think it's entirely all GamerGate.
‘Eric King: Is that a gamer thing?
Jason Hammond: GamerGate was basically the sexist dogpiling of femme
gamers. It basically i l alt-right phenomenon where it would
belike “Dog pile the woke in gaming” type of thing, where they call them
hordes or flocking of online accounts. ' just another place for people to
insert sexism and racism, and it was called GamerCate. It was kind of a
conspiracy theory—who the hell was one of the main progenitor of that
particular one.
Jeremy Hammond: They targeted women in gaming, reviewers,
develapers, and stuff like that. But, you know, gaming generally has been
very much attached to the military establishment—Call of Duty, most of
these games are actually training America’s Army was a training first
person shooter and stul like that. And mostly its the tired old narrative,
good guys, bad guys, cops, robbers, errorists, American soldiers, all this
B g thecages
bullshit right. But again, I'm just saying, that there is an indie DIY current
that are just busting out lots of their own DIY games, and they ain't going
for that shit, so I'd like to think that youth is actually down to burn some
shit.
Jason Hammond: We've met a few groups who are doing similar things.
‘There’s an “Abolitionist Gaming Network,” they had a workshop at Bash
Back where they were highlighting a few other games. There's another
one that Smash MAGA just got in, in New York right now, it’s “Cames
Against the Empire,” I think it an outdoor event happening in New York
later this month that we got inside, we got accepted. So there are plenty of
people trying o carve these spaces ou, although definitely you're right,
the perception is that i’s like its like GamerGate.
Eric King: 1 had no idea. I don’t want to sound like a jackass, T just didn't
know. This stuffis beyond me.
Jason Hammond: There’s plenty ofleftish,lefy streamers. Like HasanAbi
everyone knows. Thought Slime s another YouTuber, or BreadTube is [
think how they self-identify as. And there’s gamer leftists that have
YouTube channels where they touch on political issues, and sometimes
s just exposing this fucking right-wing grifter liar type thing. But, yeah,
thereis a scene, and I think that it has potentially become more
ubiquitous, because gaming is thing that millions of people do. Maybe
they said that we'd never make a career out of it s kids, like as a video
game tester, but now there’s billions of dollars. Beyond that, we're more
into the Indie gaming thing anyway,like unique ideas—there’s games that
deal with mentalllness, and gender identity and all that. There’s great
avenue for ideas.
Eric King: 1 might be ignorant about this also. But Jeremy, I thought your
work was priceless, about giving information to people who wouldn't
have it. Basically what you did with hacking s the exact same thing you're
doing with prison. Its tangible. And once again I could be a dummy, but I
don't see hacking happening, I don't see government stuff given to people.
to help spread knowledge. Is my perception right, and if so, what's going
on?
Jeremy Hammond: 1 mean,it’s a good question. I think everybody’s sitting
here wondering, “Where the hell is Anonymous, why the fuck!” Il say
g theages 3
this, techies in especially in the United States and western countries are
basically complicit with the indust nightmare, with the war machine
—more or less have they decided that while they might have their own
individual ethics and opinions, but when it comes to the paycheck, the
eyber security industry, or developing facial recognition software, or
erypto bullshit, and stuff like that—they bought in. You know, techies are
very much on the privileged part of society, it's white collar jobs and
offices making six figures and shit like that, the Peter Thiels of the world,
the Elon Musks and the Zuckerbergs. When I got out the first time,
especially, I was like, actually don't see too much of a future in using
technology to—and also a lot of these techies think that they discovered
democracy, and they're going to develop some tech tool to be more
democratic, or have discovered consensus decision-making and stuff like
that, but people have been doing this without computers for so long,
Honestly I think the most that hackers can really offer—besides hacking
shi what needs to get done, and it is happening, Il talk to about
a second but—mastly though, think hackers who have these type of
skills should share op security skills to protect people who are at risk or
vulnerable, especially entering this nightmarish Trump administration,
how you secure your communications and protect your privacy and your
comrades' privacy, and so forth. Other stuff, too. Maybe someone like me,
Ido websites for groups and stuff like that. Ultimately though, in the
United States,it's kind of washed up—you go to a hacker con, half the
peaple there trying to work for the NSA. But it's not always like that, there
is an original hacker vision that is anti-authoritarian, that is criminally-
minded, and I think if you leave the United States, you get you could see.
that a lttle bit more. Both of us, we actually had a chance to go to
Germany to Chaos Camp, the hacker camp. Dude, that shit was so fucking
banging, man. It really did give me hope, actually, that there was like
fucking 15,000 hackers raving for seven days straight, all anarchist trans
flags everywhere. Dude, it really did feel ke this is actually the center of
the universe type shit. So there is a hacker scene out there, but you know
—don't like look to find it. It starts with you. T would also love to see more
sabotage and more disruption, more doxing of police officers. And
honestly, we gotta catch up, these fucking nightmarish Israclis and
fucking drone warfare, and the United States military s recrui
these hackers. I think this is one of the other things besides going after
police and military. I went after other hackers who were fucking working.
for them, the White Hats, the sellouts, and stufflike that, because not only
there needs to be repercussions and deterrence for future people who
S g thecages
‘might think that that's a safe thing to do, to work for the NSA and stuff
ike that, but also because these foolios are clueless, incompetent, and
they also have the keys to the kingdom—passwords to these systems in
their Gmails and stuff. They don’t know what they're doing, so we'll be
‘more than happy to take that off your hands.
Eric King: Listening to you guys talk about technology is so interesting, so
neat. I've got a thousand questions left, but I need to eventually just let
you say what the hell you want to talk about. But just a question for me,
before 1 let you guys take the mic. Jeremy, you got ratted on. You got
ratted on hard. When you are now talking with people, either about
technology or about anything else, does that stay with you, or have you
been able to shake that and be like, “ can trust. I can lean into this”. How
has that affected you in terms of organizing?
Jeremy Hammond: I’s tough question, and it gets to the erux of it
honestly, because I think everybody’s actually wanting to do stuff, but
wanting to do so in a way that keeps everybody safe. And then you see all
these cases and stufflike that. I've always erred on the side of “Do shit and
break shit and worry about the consequences later.” I've actually not
really been known for having the best security and stufflike that
Obviously. I've been caught a million times, right? But I don't have any
regrets about that. 1 will say this, as far as the people who testified against
me on this particular trial, they weren't my close comrades that 1 bid with
every day that I've known for years in my life, so there wasn't a fecling of
betrayal on this particular instance case that 1 may have had ift was my
comrade who I've known my whole life had turned on me. This was just
some fucking loudmouth on the internet, Sabu Hector Monsegur. There
was alot of flgs there, he was an internet loudmouth who loved to brag
about shit other people did, and all that stull But anyways, he testified,
and it was like, “Go fucking figure.” It was pretty obvious. As far as now—
s like with everything, there’s layers of trust. There are some
things that I'm willing to do at a demo with random people who I might
just jump in at with at that particular moment i it scems right, because
we're only talking about misdemeanor-level type stuff for the most part.
But, yeah, i’ just layers of trust. You kind of want to build trust slowly,
do things with people on regular stuff, and sce how they react to
situations and so forth, and then on it's need-to-know and
compartmentalization all the way otherwise. But 1 don’t do anything
terribly crazy anymore, other than 1 keep up on the opsec stuff. The other
oty theages 3
thing Il say is—just read cases, read dockets, read indictments, and stuff
like that, and learn from the mistakes of other people that they've made
wolved in something, just so you're aware.
before you choose to get
‘Eric King: Knowledge s key. Tell me, what's been on your mind recently,
either what you've been doing, what yowve been feeling, what you want
todo. Tjust want to give you an open forum. Just talk.
Jeremy Hammond: Obviously Palestine, and Trump and this s
we have a higher calling here, and we've got to give it everything we go.
Stuff that happened recently, we were at the DNC, that was a whole bunch
of bullshit. For me personally, like we do lot of prison support, I've been
into this digitization of mail and censorship stuff, but yeah, but we're out
there,so.
‘Eric King: I need more!
Jason Hammond: We're gonna need o continue doing movement st
building power with other folks who are who are doing similar work,
prison abolition, mutual aid. Anyone can get involved in these things and
should! That is a way to build community and experiment in solidarity
economy. We try to do some other cool things, e we do the Running
Down The Walls, it's like our third year organizing that.
‘Eric King: You guys both organize it over there?
Jason Hammond: Oh, i’s like our fourth year of Running Down The Walls
it generator show, too. We're involved in bands, and
there’s alot of good music in Chicago, so we love to bring music to
prisoners.
Eric King: Did L see you all playing a show outside of a jail?
Jeremy Hammond: Mighta... Yeah, sounds like something we would.
Eric King: Oh, did 1 just snitcht? Did I see a band perform outside the jill?
Jason Hammond: IUs an open secret that we make music and we hate
prisons. Noise demos, emphasis on noise. We like to ereate interventions.
ty that gets people to rethink. Like outside of a jail, no one expect
S g thecages
to see somethinglike a protest and a celebration. So we do the noise
generator stuff.. What else we got? The prison censorship stuff.
Jeremy Hammond: 1 mean, yeah, the prison suppor, solidarity stuff we
0t ABC out here, we got Books to Prisoners out here, like you said the Its
Going Down zines is one of our mainstays, we send this to allthe political
prisoners and there’s several hundred other people on the mailinglist.
Eric King: Shout out (o It's Going Down.
Jeremy Hammond: So people can get a subscription (o Is Going Down, or
any other publication or social media fecd. We're basically trying to build
those networks of folks inside-outside, because you knov folks are
coming out one day, folks who got nothing to lose and everything to gain
from the overthrow of the system. You've seen it. We got millions out
there, fucking ready, you know. How are we going to do this?
Eric King: Our panel next month is all about politicized prisoners. You
both, and I really respected it,like the person I rep the most is not a
political prisoner, it's just my friend, who has nobody.
Jeremy Hammond: Randy Platc?
Eric King: Yeah! We did a concert for him, a benefit show, and
Jeremy Hammond: Woah! Cool!
Jason Hammond: Nice!
Eric King: Talk about why it's important. We don’t have that much time,
left, but please talk about why it's important to support all prisoners,
instead of just this upper class of political prisoners, either of you.
Jason Hammond: Well essentially,the cru is that no one should be
behind bars. It is a torturous vestigial remnant of the fucking slavery in
the United States, and for those reasons alone we should suppor every
single prisoner in the right for freedom. That's e fi
base,like Jeremy said, is that unless you're i there for life, and you
deserve to fucking fight for your freedom and have a dignified life if
you're fucking stuck there, but everyone's going to get out, alot of people
« base. The second
g thecages 38
are going to get out, and then they're going to be part of society, and if we
want to talk about changing and abolishing the carceral aspects of society,
we have to treat all humans as if they were capable of liberation, and so
for that reason every prisoner should be supported and everyone freed.
Because if we say some people are deserving of respect, and others aren't,
then okay, maybe you are a warden, lie maybe a lot of peaple walking
around the street are guards of an open-air prison society. Because the
thing is, everyone in prison, the choices that maybe you could say have led
them there, are logical reactions to living in a society that has deprived
peaple of the meaningful resources of ways of living. Like, “I got laid off so
Thad to do this scam, and now I got caught and I'm in prison.” That could.
be anyone. It could be you. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn’t
make you better than the people who it did happen to, and it might
happen to you next month. Maybe not for everybody, of course, if you
look at prisons, the large majority is people of color, so plenty people walk
around with privileges and maybe not thinking of themselves like it's
even possible for it to happen to, like white folk I'm talking about. But the
prison system is of course expanding, and it will take you in because you
fucking got caught up in the same shit too.
‘Eric King: I want to point out to people that the stock prices of Core Civic
rose like 80%, and that's not on accident, its because they know that those
joints are about to be packed.
Jason Hammond: They re talking about the money involved—T'm not
talking about the money, first off—they're going to prison before you try
to deport a million people because of due process and all that. That is an
unfathomable monstrosity that must be challenged at every fucking level
by every single member of saciety. Then the cost of it,you're talking about
numbers that most people don't even talk about, trillions of dollars to do
this massive... And then, the thing s, once they build these prisons,
they're fucking there, and they're goin to continue using them. Let's say.
they do some fucking fascist nightmare stuffin the next few years,right,
but then the next 10 years that prison’s stll there, and they're going to
have every excuse to fll these beds and keep making money. So what
happened in the last few day's is an extreme acceleration of the Prison
Industrial Complex on a level that we haven't seen I think.
Jeremy Hammond: And like ] was saying, the expansion of these cop cities
and these prisons and stufflike that—they know what the future actually
5 g thecages
s, the state is going to more and more resemble a military police state, the
erosion of social services, and it's a future for all of us, even those of us
mum security are going to see more carceral type
controls, everything from facial recognition to credit scores and all this
shit. So our work is necessarily to stop the construction of Letcher County
Prison, the BOP trying to build a new prison.
who are out here in mi
Eric King: Fight Toxic Prisons?
Jeremy Hammond: Yeah, Fight Toxic Prisons, they're trying to build—they
just voted I think last week, the BOP said, “Yeah, we actually do want that
prison.” Ilinois is about to build a whole new billion dollar fucking prison
system to replace Stateville, which is s0 old, so fucked up, so torturous
that even the judge said, Yeah, we got (o get everybody out of there by
next week” They re about to build abillion dollars and something prison,
but there’s abvious solutions here. Let people fucking go. Back to your
original question, 1 kind of think all people who are behind bars in this
country are political, like politics permeate, white supremacy permeates
through every aspect of that court, You think it's a fair shot when you get
up there and see that judge or that jury, or those who made those laws. [
think about all the folks who are locked up who might not even been
political i the sense that they got arrested for breakinga window or
something like that, but their whole lives might have been political. O
whatever they had to do, like Jason had said, just to make it in this
capitalist dog-at-dog world. You had to resort o criminality one time,
now they put you in a box? And that's a future for all of s unless we stop
it Twill also just say that while I do think maybe ABC's support of political
prisoners might be a lttle bit narrow to our taste, because, you know, we
support those folks too, but we support everybody and don't put anybody
on pedestals and stufflike that. But 1 do think that it is absolutely
essential that we have the backs of those who actually do get out there,
our comrades who actually do put i the work struggling for self-
determination and a better world. We got to look after these folks, and so
that's why we do have formations like ABC and that's why we do look
after political prisoners, for lack of a better word, maybe a different word
is more appropriate.
Eric King: 1 look at the social media sites, and Il see a group has 10,000
likes, and I think if each of you wrote one letter, you can make such a dent
in that system, but also lift up so many people. There’s enough, like we can
g thecages 37
support everybody, there’s enough resources. Before we go, there’s been
some sad moments and some happy moments in this talk, and 'd like to,
know what gives you guys hope right now. What makes you smile, what
‘makes you most happy, whether it's in the movement outside or both?
What makes my two friends happy?
Jeremy Hammond: Well i’ a fucked up world, society, right, but T want
to'say that we do count our small wins when we got them. Ill maybe tell a
story when Iwas a prison and now too. In prison, you might be in the hole
24 hours a day, you're fucking banging on the doors and nothing, right?
But you know what makes you happy—the small wins, when you might be
flooding the deck with everybody clse, and you might sce the cop slip and
fall and fucking get wet and you will be laughing about that shit for
‘months. Yeah, you're sillin hole and stuff like that, but it fucking felt
good watching that happen. And the same now, you see people on the
world fucking strike out and get some get back, and even though we
might not have the upper hand overall right now, but take joy and pride in
those lttle moments that we do have our wins.
‘Eric King: Absolutely. Jason?
Jason Hammond: I'm thinking s the solidarity, because i's casy (o be.
ienated in this shit society right. But alot more people give a fuck about
the well-being of others than maybe we might know about, because it’s
not like everywhere, like its set up to where we shouldn't right? You
drive your car to your job, go back you're fucking trad fam or whatever
the hell. And it's alienating, but we're seeing more genuine acts of
solidarity, and more people willing to take chances to change it I think
that is beautiful thing that keeps moving, and like a lot of people who
have given in—or I won't say given it but who just experienced despair
n and all that—they could be part of movements of solidarity,
and 1 think that is one of the things sceing and witnessing and
g and gives you hope. I think that's one of
the reasons why I haven't given into pessimism or misanthropy that
doesn't lead to a change in society because I do believe that like we are
going to need to give a fuck about cach other. There's that a
ways of trying to teach other people to give a fuck about other people..”
We gotta keep finding new ways to get people to give a fuck about cach
other, because then we do give into a fascist nightmare.
e, “T've lost
38 et thecges
Eric King: Just letting you both know, my one year is December 12. On
December 14, me and my wife are having a free wedding, because we got
‘married inside, so we're doing our free ceremony, and then also a
celebration party because we're free. You're both invited!
P just gonna take this time to shout out Randy Platt “Smiles.” He s at
ADX still. He will be there for the next 14 years. He is there for slicing a cop
who abused him relentlessly in the SHU. He sliced him through a bean
slot. Yeah, got his bitch ass at USB Florence. He is gonna be there, and we
are his support. His support is strangers, it's me, it’s Jeremy, it's Jason, it’s
all the people that write him, so I encourage everyone to please write
Randy, or to write anyone, write a prisoner. It can change their ife. It can
‘make someone’s life go from hell to beauty so quick.
How do people get a hold of you, or what do you recommend people do?
What's your final sign off message?
Jason Hammond: Keep organizing, keep agitating; keep escalating, Keep
supporting those that do—not everyone needs to do everything, right, we
need a lot of different people to do a lot o different types of things. Find a
niche where you feel good, where you're effective, and keep those who are
working and swimming the same dircction in your hearts, and keep a
Iookout for those who are doing everything they can and who have fallen
through cracks of the system, and like you said, write prisoners.
Jeremy Hammond: You said 14 years, but I don't think that future s a
uarantee. Like i’ hard to even imagine another election in four years,
that it's going to be at all the same. We also know that there’s folks inside
who are going t0 be there, 5o they say forever unless something changes,
unless the system is overthrown. s on all of us who are out here: our
freedom is actually a privilege and a responsibility. Me and you are some
of the lucky ones to get out, and ke you said, your comrades nside,
they're waiting for us out here to do the right thing, o let's get out there
anddoit.
Eric King: 1 love you both.
Jason & Jeremy Hammond: Love you, too!
Eric King: Libertie, 1 appreciate you, friend. Sign us out.
g teages
Libertie Valance: This been awesome. I really appreciating the clarity that
all brought to this conversation. 'm hoping that everybody’s g
join us on November 23rd for the next conversation in this serics. Big
thanks to you Eric and also Josh for putting this book together and making
the series happen. It’s just been amazing, Thank you so much!
Jason Hammond: Yeah, have a great night,y'all.
Jeremy Hammond: Yes,sce you later, much respects solidarity, yall.
W et thecages
‘People, Places, Events, & Organizations
July7,2016 — Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and shot police officers in Dallas,
‘Texas, killing five,injuring nine others, and wounding two civilians. Johnson,
25-year-old Army Reserve Alghan War veteran, was angry over white police
shootings of black men. He shot the officers at the end of protest against the
recent killings by police of Alton Stesling in Baton Rouge, Lovisiana, and
Philando Castile in Falcon Heights, Minnesota.
RNC protests — thousands of people gathered in Saint Paul, Minnesota in 2005
1o protest the Republican National Convention and problems associated with it
such as the US war in Iraq, homelessness, poverty, and other issucs. A significant
black bloc materialized for the protests, and there were major clashes with the
police. Over the three days of the convention, police arrested nearly 500 people.
with around halfof them receiving felonies. 21 felonies were ultimately
prosecuted. A legal support campaign emerged to support the RNC s, anarchist
organizers who were arrested on no-knock warrants before the protests
oceurred via police infiltration and whomn the state attempted to charge with
domestic terrorism.
Peter Gelderloos — an anarchist theorist and activist who is most known for
works such as How Nonviolence Protects the State, The Solutions are Already
Here: Strategies for Ecological Revolution from Below, Anarchy Works, The
Failure of Non-Violence, and Worshiping Power: An Anarchist View of Early
State Formation.
Anti-Racist Action (ARA) — a decentralized network of anti-fuscists and other
Lefist militants that engaged in direct action to physically combat fascists
through direct action. ARA originally came out of the efforts of Minneapolis anti-
racist Skinheads in the hardcore punk scene to create an organization that could
combat the presence of nazi skinheads. By 1992, the network had expanded
beyond its original subeulural base in the skinhead scene to inchude also
students, workers, anarchist punks and older lefl-wing activists. ARA built up
connections to black power groups i places like Chicugo, and integrated sspects
of third-wave feminism and, as part of this, defended sbortion clinics against
fundamentalistattacks. The network grew and spread throughout North
America. The midwest, particulasly Minneapolis, Chicago and Columbus, were
the main hotspot for activity, but notable chapters existed in Portland, Los
Angeles, Toronto and clsewhere.
Toreh Network — a decentralized network of ant-faseists that formed out of
‘Anti-Racist Action (ARA) to combat fascists through direet action and o disrupt
‘and deny space for fuscists to organize.
CHAZ — Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone — an autonomous one | communc /
g theages 0
protest camp in Seattle during the 2020 George Floyd Uprisings. The [ormation
of CHAZ was preceded by a week of tense confrontations and batiles betw
the police and protestors near the SPD's East Precinet, which the police
ultimately sbundoned. Protestors were able to hold the space from June to July
32020, when SPD with help from the FBI cleared the camp arresting dozens of
people. The space offered free fo0d, support and supplies for houseless people,
community gardens, and consensus decision making, Many radical critis of
CHAZ noted, however, ailings of the commune, as protestors did not seize the
abandoned precinet, ike was done in Minneapolis, and internal security
replicated dangerous hierarchies, with 16 year old Black youth left dead in
shooting at the commune's borders,
Jilhouse Lawyers Speak — the lrgest prisoner-Led o ganization o for
prisoners’ buman rights and digaity in the United States. Notoriows for their
work towards aboliton,Jailhouse Lawyers Speak has distinguished history of
organizing and participating in major events (2037 Historical Millions for
Prisoners Human Rights March, 2015 Nationwide Prison Strike, 2021 Shut ‘em
Down Demonstrations] with members across the country for better conditions
within US prisons and legal educational opportunities for US prisoners. Their
relentless efforts to provide law books, courses and literature aids prisoners to
educate themselves and encourages them to help teach and liberate other
prisoncrs.Jailhouse Luwyers Speak welcomes new members in both mer’s and
women's prisons in the US. New and ongoing community-based projects led by
the inside that connect inside and outside organizers will struggle forward in the
spiritof abolition as JLS continues to build resistance. For more information:
www jailhouselawyersspeak.com;
Bash Back! — a network of queer, insursectionary anarehist cells active in the
United States. Formed in Chicago in 2007 o faciltate a convergence of radical
trans and gay sctivists rom sround the country, Bash Back! sought o eritique
the ideology of the mainstream LGBTQ movement, which the group sa as
assimilation into the dominant institutions of a heteronormative society. Bash
Back! was noticeably influenced by the anarchist movement and radical queer
groups, susch as ACT UP, and took inspiration from the Stonewall and San
Francisco's White Night riots.
Running Down the Walls — Since 1999, prisoness and supporters throughout
North America have participated in the annusl event known as Running Down
the Walls (RDTW), a non-competitive 5K run/jog/walk,roll o rise awareness
and funds for political prisoners. Over the years, RDTW has raised thousands of
dollars and lots of awareness around the struggle to free political prisoners.
1ts Going Down — a digital community center and media platform featuring
news,opinion, podeasts, and reporting on wutonomous movements 4cFoss so-
called North America from an anarchist perspective. 1GD announced the project
A2 et thecages
swould be on histus in December 2024, The website remains an archive of
anarchist and autonomous history and struggle. For more information:
itsgoingdownorg/about/
Fight Toxic Prisons — The Campaiga (o Fight Toxic Prisons (FIP) mission is to
conduct grassroots organizing, advocacy, and direct action at the intersection of
incarceration, health, and ecology. We aim to dircetly challenge the prison
system, which s putting prisoners at risk of dangerous eaviranmental
conditions, as well as impacting susrounding communities and ecosystems by
their construction and operation. FTP often leads campaigns to support
prisoners through environmental disasters. For more information:
fighttoxicprisons.wordpress.com/about/
g teages 43
Fially, the BOP ntroduced the MP3
program: you can by chap-assdollar
Siore MP3 playe spcially manufactured
oy SanDisk and wiean Tunceike music
Sors buit nt the same emai teminls.
Niany recretion depariments have also
been. playng. newy roased e
DVDs romNetis (PG 13)and streaming
sl radiostatons (paid for o st
Tund" money kimmed of he top ofthe
‘Sready skmmed commisary profis)
o' bl o e any of (i n NYC.
when they ol it out becae they put
e o resrcion, worred 14 hack the
Plane or stal MP3s. | was aiso put o
Eommissary nesiicton for 3 yeor and
s of i for two yearsfor drupping.
Gty on 2 drog, et Bt afer bing.
Sontenced ad ariving her n Kentucky
ey anable i nc | was able to buy an
NP and use emal (hough incoming/
outgoing messages aredelayed by days)
e masic sleton el i something
ke anes mainsream siged ancs, o
explct yric. | was unabie 0 determine
hat kind of relationship they have with
he record companies o provide the
masic, S0 heres ome samples 10 give
Jouan e ofwhat they g
They do here. Against Mo, Against Al
vahort, NOFX, Green Day,Busscocks,
Bad Rligion, Germs, Crampe, AN Flg,
from Jeremy Hammond's column in
Maximum Rockaroll 82 (2015 Mar)
S et thecges
£ . s e s
TR
FLEEe T e
L SR
=
Pt
et
MR
Write to Political Prisoners.
‘mentioned in this conversation
Randy Platt #20764-081
USP Florence ADMAX.
PO Box 8500
Florence, CO 80501
‘nycabe.wordpress.com/write-a-letter/
ationg the cages
i
Rattling the Cages
1) Political Prisoners, Mass Incarceration, & Abolition
Eric King, Herman Bell, David Gilbert, Susan Rosenberg
2). Continuing the Struggle Inside & Out
Eric King, Ashanti Alston, Ray Luc Levasseur
3) Antifascism Behind Bars
Eric King and David Campbell
4) Black August & Prisoner Support
Eric King, dequi kioni-sadiki, Harold Taylor
5) Eric King in Conversation with James Kilgore
Eric King, James Kilgore
6) Post-Prison Activism & Archiving Resistance
Eric King, Jake Conroy, Claude Marks
%) Until All Are Free
Eric King, Jason Hammond, Jeremy Hammond
8) Revolutionary Women Behind Bars
Eric King, Linda Evans, Laura Whitehorn, Nicole Kissane
) Becoming Politicized in Prison
Eric King, Josh Davidson, Heetor Rodriguez, Farhan Ahmed
10) Rattling the Cages: How We Dit It & How You Can Too
Eric King, Sara Falconer, Josh Davidson
all conversations are available @FirestormCoop on youtube
6 et thecages
Support Political Prisoners.
As you've heard & read, it is vital that we support the political prisoners
of our liberation movements. Providing support builds bridges across and
through prison bars, giving those locked inside a connection to the
outside world. Your support matters.
Get involved. Write to a political prisoner—a simple letter provides a
needed escape. Visit them in prison. Ask what a political prisoner needs
and do what you can to help them. Offer them support.
Visit the NYC Anarchist Black Cross website (nycabe.wordpress.com) and
learn more about those currently imprisoned for political reasons.
Buy a Certain Days: Freedom for Political Prisoners calendar
(certaindays.org).
Visit your local Books Through Bars group and send books to those
incarcerated (booksthroughbarsnyc.org/resources).
Join your nearest Anarchist Black Cross group (abefner).
Visit rattlingthecages.com to learn more.
g theages 47
linktr.ee/rattlingthecages
Inthis Rattlingthe Cages panel talk, former
political prisoners Eric King and Jason and
Jeremy Hammond discuss state vs. federal
prisons, solidarity inside and out, and readjusting
tolife once released. These three antifascists
wereimprisoned for very different actions and
faced very different circumstances and
environments, and yet. allthree came out of
prison determined to fight back against the
carceral system until all are fre
FRESTORM